quote:

Originally posted by Alyron:
357Fuzz-

quote:

Can you get in your contract to get work out time in? An agency not to far from us do 12 hours shifts but, their contract has a provision that they have two hours in their work day that they can work out, go and get something healthy to eat, hit a doctor’s appointment if needed, etc….

I work for a large Sheriff's Office in a Democratic County . We have a ridiculous time just trying to get a decent cost of living raise, they have no interest giving us time to work out. I used to work in a larger District here that had a gym in the station and we had supervisors that would let us take a dinner break and work out (this was on nights). I now work in a smaller District, no gym and shorthanded most days so no chance of squeezing in a workout.

Iron Chef-
"It's not that difficult for people who like to shoot and practice shooting on their own time, i.e., shooting enthusiasts; however, the vast majority of LEOs are not enthusiasts. Most of them practice the bare minimum required of them to meet their department's qualifying standards; that's if they have required practice at all.

You have more experience in this area than I do, so if I'm way off base, then let me know."

I was the Firearms Instructor at my last agency for several years. We had some guys and girls who could barely qualify and we were lucky they knew which end of the gun the bullet came out of. These type had no interest in bettering their shooting skills, or any tactical skills for that matter. We also had guys that were constantly asking for ammo to go shooting every chance they could. I didn't particularly like instructing but I loved getting to go to every shooting/training class I put in for along with a basically unlimited ammo supply and open range time.

I get it. Good luck to you. Be safe.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:

This reminds me of an argument I read that police officers should be held to the same handgun qualifying standards as the FBI.

What’s the FBI standard? 80%? Because the NC State ( and most others) is 70%…yup 30% of those rounds could be off the paper and you could still qual with the other 70% in the 5 ring. So 35 in the 5 ring and 15 in the white. Think about that.

My old dept once thought of going to a 1 hit on a 18” x 24” steel gong from 10 yards….the LT asked me about it because I was a firearms instructor…he lauded how he could literally qualify the entire department with four boxes of ammo (to include the ones who missed the first shot and had to re-qual)

He wanted to write himself a citation to describe how much $ he could save the department.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:
This reminds me of an argument I read that police officers should be held to the same handgun qualifying standards as the FBI.

So, you get the fact that the FBI standard or any 3 letter agency is not that difficult.

It's not that difficult for people who like to shoot and practice shooting on their own time, i.e., shooting enthusiasts; however, the vast majority of LEOs are not enthusiasts. Most of them practice the bare minimum required of them to meet their department's qualifying standards; that's if they have required practice at all.

You have more experience in this area than I do, so if I'm way off base, then let me know.

The FBI is no different. They have many that can’t shoot. So, the standard isn’t all that hard. As to your comment about shooting the 80 percent, it isn’t that hard. It doesn’t take a “shooting enthusiast”. The times are mainly generous, the targets aren’t discreet. A good shooter has no problem inside the inner scoring ring, let alone keeping it on the coke bottle. I shoot the FLETC qual at least 4 times a year for score. My goal is always to shoot the stage in half the time allotted. I see a lot of so so shooters hit in the mid 90s. Field offices don’t have nice ranges, with turning targets. Few if any have their own ranges. So, they borrow the locals range, and go through the motions of qualifications. A 30 second time hack is usually over when the last agent stops firing. A lot of targets are scored “good enough”. It’s just like a lot of local agencies. There is no magic.

Hell, the FAMS are the best known federal agencies at cultivating shooters. Even their standards have gotten easier.

Bottom line, no rank and file federal agency has ghetto gunfighters standards. Holding them on a pedestal as some kind of gold standard is misinformed.

Exactly.

Outside of specialized higher-risk units, or individual agents with high-speed backgrounds or an enthusiasm for guns and training, the FBI isn't some mythical gunslinger agency packed with upper tier shooters. Instead, the FBI is filled with white collar accountant/lawyer/computer nerd types who have just been trained in the basics of shooting and are only held to a minimal qualification standard.

This is the FBI Qualification test I know of.



Every PD sets its own qualifying standards. Maybe its just my part of the country, but nearly every LEO I know or have talked to has told me their shooting test is either easier than the FBI's or very similar but w/ a much lower passing score.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
...the FBI isn't some mythical gunslinger agency packed with upper tier shooters. Instead, the FBI is filled with white collar accountant/lawyer/computer nerd types who have just been trained in the basics of shooting and are only held to a minimal qualification standard.

I understand that, and my comments never implied that FBI agents are trained to shoot like Tier 1 SOF units. The majority of FBI agents & police officers shoot just well enough to pass quals. My contention is that if the FBI's quals are higher than most PD's quals, then you'll lose a lot of police officers if you raise their shooting standard to match the FBI's. If your PD is facing a retention & recruiting shortage, as many large urban PDs around the country are currently, then raising standards is unlikely to increase your number of officers.

In Florida the handgun qualifying course and required score (80%), (32 out of 40) is set by FDLE. The rifle qualifying course is not standardized.

I know you think that we’re being dicks but we are not. First off, let me say that I still disagree with your premise for several reasons. Just because the number is higher, doesn’t make someone better trained. I don’t believe that is the current FBI CoF, but for the sake of argument, let’s say that it is. I can tell you for a fact that agents do not fire from concealment during quarterly range. At least the ones around here. They also do not shoot qual cold. And they get three bites at the apple to “pass”. If they don’t pass, they get some coaching and get to come back and try it again. The reason I disagree that is the current CoF is because I thought DOJ standardized their courses of fire for uniformity of qualifications a few years back.

So to help you understand it better, let’s call this what it is. A math problem. Using this CoF to shoot the standard, you have to have 48 hits somewhere in the coke bottle. Anywhere in the full coke bottle. 45 of those rounds are fired as high percentage shots. Meaning they are fired from up close. Only 15 rounds are so called low percentage shots. So, to get your 80 you can piss away 12 rounds past the 7.

Now look at how the course is administered. If they have fairly lenient standards for time, it ups the percentage and score. Add in coaching, and I can take someone with little skill and have them shooting in the upper 80s in a couple of hours.

Do most cops suck? Yep. They are woefully underprepared in firearms. Is the FBI any different? Nope. Can some FBI agents shoot? Absolutely. I know more than a few that are highly talented and take the craft seriously. Regional SWAT and HRT are exceptional.

Can you legitimately claim that most cops would wash out on such a high standard? Frightfully, no. Not on any greater a percentage than the feds wash out. It’s just a math problem.

quote:

Originally posted by iron chef:
This is the FBI Qualification test I know of.



Every PD sets its own qualifying standards. Maybe its just my part of the country, but nearly every LEO I know or have talked to has told me their shooting test is either easier than the FBI's or very similar but w/ a much lower passing score.

quote:

Originally posted by RogueJSK:
...the FBI isn't some mythical gunslinger agency packed with upper tier shooters. Instead, the FBI is filled with white collar accountant/lawyer/computer nerd types who have just been trained in the basics of shooting and are only held to a minimal qualification standard.

I understand that, and my comments never implied that FBI agents are trained to shoot like Tier 1 SOF units. The majority of FBI agents & police officers shoot just well enough to pass quals. My contention is that if the FBI's quals are higher than most PD's quals, then you'll lose a lot of police officers if you raise their shooting standard to match the FBI's. If your PD is facing a retention & recruiting shortage, as many large urban PDs around the country are currently, then raising standards is unlikely to increase your number of officers.

Not completely true. In my state the local agency does not make the qualification. It is in state statute. No deviation. Passing is 70%. My department says it will be 80%. Is it easier or harder than the FBI course. I don’t think so same but, different.

I have worked w/ and shot w/ agents from different alphabet agencies. If I had to pick one to go somewhere and had to put rounds on target give me someone from the DEA, Marshal’s, and/or Air Marshals. FBI, not so much except for the two I know from HRT. But, that is a different level. Your normal field agent from the FBI, nah…….

If anybody needs to be physically fit, it's a LEO. He might have to go from sitting in a car surveilling, filling out reports or whatever, to a foot pursuit, in an instant, while carrying a load of gear, much more than in Malloy & Reed's day. And therein lies much of the problem.