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Modern gasoline is some whicked stuff! (curse the corn juice) Login/Join 
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Picture of cas
posted
There's an old Ford in my driveway that's basically a backup truck for my father's business. Despite being 30+ years old and oodles of miles, it always starts right up. Recently it's taken a little longer to go. Then no start at all. No fuel pressure.

I took the bed off and put a fuel pump in, she fired right up. But of course in disturbing the rust incrusted sending unit connections, the unit started leaking in two places. So I ordered the cheapest Ebay sending unit I could.

It took a week and a half to get here. Today I pulled the old sending unit with the new pump out and was shocked. The rubber pump mount that goes at the end of the pump where it sits in the sending unit was already soft and expanded about 10-20% in size.
The new hose that came with the pump, that connects the pump to the unit was already really soft and mushy. After only a F@&KING WEEK AND A HALF! Good lord! What evil stuff.
 
Posts: 18912 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Not nearly the same order of magnitude, but I just rebuilt a junk snowblower for a coworker. In doing so I used a factory Tecumseh float needle and seat kit which comes with a float bowl seal.

Float needle wasn't sealing quite right and the carb had a slow drip so I took it back apart again about 3 days later. Float bowl seal was expanded to the point where it was unusable and I had to break into a spare carb kit (always buy multiples) for a replacement after getting the float needle to seat properly.

Insanity. Of course I also had to scrub and blast the residue from evaporated Ethanol out of it in the first place when I took the carb apart to begin with.

Ethanol sucks.
 
Posts: 595 | Location: Midwest | Registered: April 13, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of sigcrazy7
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There are now five gas stations within a half mile of my house that sell clear gas. It’s more expensive, but it’s the only thing that goes in my boat, small equipment, and classic motorcycles. Perhaps you can fill the old truck up with clear gas since it rarely gets used.



Demand not that events should happen as you wish; but wish them to happen as they do happen, and you will go on well. -Epictetus
 
Posts: 7119 | Location: Utah | Registered: December 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Rev. A. J. Forsyth
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Phase separation of the water molecules is what is going on with the ethanol fuel, not to mention the corrosive effects.

If you cannot find ethanol free gasoline, you can make your own. I have done it in the past, easy enough to do with the right containers.

Ethanol is hydrophilic. If you have say 10% Ethanol fuel available by you, put 10 liters of it into a container with a bottom drain. Add 10% - 1 liter of water to the fuel. Let it sit overnight. In the morning drain 2 liters from the container. You will be draining 2 liters of water. The one you added, plus the 1 that bonded with the water.

Trust me, I'm an engineer. Wink
 
Posts: 1488 | Location: Winston-Salem  | Registered: April 01, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
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quote:
Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:
In the morning drain 2 liters from the container. You will be draining 2 liters of water. The one you added, plus the 1 that bonded with the water.

Assuming it phase-separates into two layers, instead of three. Usually does, but not always.

quote:
Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:
Trust me, I'm an engineer. Wink

Then you know removing the ethanol from ethanol-blended gasoline lowers its octane rating, which, depending upon the engine, could have deleterious side-effects.

All that being said: Yes, ethanol-blended gasoline is evil stuff. And I believe it to be a massive scam.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
"The dominant media is no more ``mainstream`` than leftists are liberals." -- me
 
Posts: 20847 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Thank you
Very little
Picture of HRK
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https://www.pure-gas.org/

Get the app, you can find ethanol free gas stations near you.



 
Posts: 17829 | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of cas
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I know that app is extremely outdated. lol

There's only one "near" me that actually has it (despite what the online sources say) and it's closing in on $5 a gallon.
 
Posts: 18912 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of rexles
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They are talking about raising the ethanol content of the gasoline even higher.
89 Octane ethanol free gas at the marina where I dock my boat is $4.09-4.19 a gl. It frosts me everytime I fill up the boat BUT it is cheaper than rebuilding the fuel system every year.


NRA Life member
NRA Certified Instructor
"Our duty is to serve the mission, and if we're not doing that, then we have no right to call what we do service" Marcus Luttrell
 
Posts: 1049 | Location: Holland, OH | Registered: May 07, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Rev. A. J. Forsyth
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quote:
Assuming it phase-separates into two layers, instead of three. Usually does, but not always.


You can dye the water with food coloring as a visual cue to help. I've never had it separate into three layers, but yes it is possible. If you are overly cautious, you can purchase test strips for your final product.

quote:
hen you know removing the ethanol from ethanol-blended gasoline lowers its octane rating, which, depending upon the engine, could have deleterious side-effects.


Ethanol does raise the octane, but this can be overcome by additives after you have removed the water. Ethanol typically has on octane rating of 110 to 113, when mixed with 85, 87, or 89 octane gasoline, the overall octane rating at the pump is achieved. Once you have removed the ethanol, you can replace with an octane boosting additive or start with 91 or 93 octane from the beginning, bringing the rating back to 89 or 87. Most modern vehicles outside of specialty and high performance rigs can either advance or retard timing to deal with fuel with a lower octane, but that is not really germane to this discussion.

I no longer have to do this as I have a Shell station by my house that sells 93 octane, ethanol free fuel. However, I just wanted to offer an alternative to those members that may not have access to ethanol free fuel for their power equipment, etc.

The method is not difficult and the chemistry doesn't lie.
 
Posts: 1488 | Location: Winston-Salem  | Registered: April 01, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Perception
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quote:
Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:
quote:
Assuming it phase-separates into two layers, instead of three. Usually does, but not always.


You can dye the water with food coloring as a visual cue to help. I've never had it separate into three layers, but yes it is possible. If you are overly cautious, you can purchase test strips for your final product.

quote:
hen you know removing the ethanol from ethanol-blended gasoline lowers its octane rating, which, depending upon the engine, could have deleterious side-effects.


Ethanol does raise the octane, but this can be overcome by additives after you have removed the water. Ethanol typically has on octane rating of 110 to 113, when mixed with 85, 87, or 89 octane gasoline, the overall octane rating at the pump is achieved. Once you have removed the ethanol, you can replace with an octane boosting additive or start with 91 or 93 octane from the beginning, bringing the rating back to 89 or 87. Most modern vehicles outside of specialty and high performance rigs can either advance or retard timing to deal with fuel with a lower octane, but that is not really germane to this discussion.

I no longer have to do this as I have a Shell station by my house that sells 93 octane, ethanol free fuel. However, I just wanted to offer an alternative to those members that may not have access to ethanol free fuel for their power equipment, etc.

The method is not difficult and the chemistry doesn't lie.


I'm lucky enough to have real gas available near me, but I'm gonna tuck this method away for future reference.




"The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford, "it is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't the people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them. They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards."
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard, then the wrong lizard might get in."
 
Posts: 3009 | Location: Two blocks from the Center of the Universe | Registered: December 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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quote:
Originally posted by Perception:
I'm lucky enough to have real gas available near me, but I'm gonna tuck this method away for future reference.


Yeah, that's a pretty cool trick.

 
Posts: 27645 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Thank you
Very little
Picture of HRK
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quote:
Originally posted by cas:
I know that app is extremely outdated. lol

There's only one "near" me that actually has it (despite what the online sources say) and it's closing in on $5 a gallon.


Just checked it for my area, it's spot on..

If you have a WaWa in your area they typically carry ethanol free.



 
Posts: 17829 | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
A Grateful American
Picture of sigmonkey
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Replace the % of alcohol removed with toluene to be returned to the same octane rating you started with.

Toluene is a pure hydrocarbon and has zero negative effects to O2 sensors or cat converters.

Adding up to 20% will also work if the clear fuel is too low (89) for high compression or boosted engines.




"the meaning of life, is to give life meaning" I could explain it to you, but I can't understand it for you.
 
Posts: 41733 | Location: fl | Registered: December 20, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I had a 1988 Searay 21 Mid Cabin cruiser that I sold in 2011. All I ever used was typical pump gas, in most cases with ethanol. Also have a 1985 Monte Carlo SS with 240K on the clock that has always been run with premium pump gas, nearly 100% of which was gas with ethanol. Then there are the two 1986 Olds Cutlass Supreme's that were daily drivers, also ran on nothing but mid grade pump gas. Current Daily driver is a 2019 Fiesta ST that gets fed premium pump gas. also had a MTD lawn mower that got fed pump gas for it's 20 year life span. Thought about replacing the carb that was flat worn out but that part cost more than the mower I bought to replace the MTD.

Point is that most engines made since the late 1970's have been built to run 10% ethanol blends without harm. Cannot say if the same holds true for a aftermarket fuel pump but suspect those parts aren't up to OEM standards. When I was younger and still foolish found out that aftermarket clutches would wear out after about 30K miles and paying the higher price for OEM was a much finer choice. So I'm not too surprised at your softened rubber situation, you get what you pay for. Which is why I only buy OEM parts for my vehicles.

The bottom line is this, ethanol only causes issues when you cheap out and purchase sub standard parts. Believe me, I've been there done that, I used to try the cheap route time after time when I was young. The tipping point for me was with a 1970 VW Beetle. Used to put after market brake pads in the car and they would glaze over and stop working well after only 10K miles. About the time the car hit 45K miles I was sick and tired of replacing the brake pads. My Dad suggested that I use an OEM brand and see how that worked. So I went into the parts shop and asked what they had for a Beetile in an OEM brand and the answer was AC Delco. Yeah, GM was actually making parts for the VW Beetle in the 70's. That was the last set of brakes I ever put on that Beetle, gave it to my sister with 110K on the clock and she drove it for about a year before she forgot about checking the oil and blew the engine up good and final.

BTW, the one product that Ethanol did a number on with me was a Craftsman Leaf Blower. That one had a crap fuel line that rotted and totally gummed up the carburetor. However it took about 12 years to do that so I probably shouldn't complain. However if MTD can make a cheap lawn mower that last 20 years I expect more from an uppity brand like Craftsman.

PS; on a final note one way of Hot Rodding the Fiesta is by installing what is called an E30 Tune. Seems if you run a 30% ethanol blend your can crank up the boost and timing timing and gain around 25-30 horsepower. BTW, folks running these Tunes get their ethanol from the Gasahol pump and mix that with regular gas. There are even sensors you can purchase that will tell you the exact mix you are running.


I've stopped counting.
 
Posts: 4841 | Location: Michigan | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I can’t stand that ethanol garbage.

Only the good stuff for my babies....100% ethanol free, gluten free and fully sustainable gas goes into my motos and lawn mower. I’m lucky to have a few gas stations within a 5 min drive that sell ethanol free gas. It cost a bit more but I think it’s worth it.
 
Posts: 18576 | Registered: April 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Rev. A. J. Forsyth
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quote:
The bottom line is this, ethanol only causes issues when you cheap out and purchase sub standard parts.


This is simply not true. Ethanol is a very strong solvent, much stronger than "pure" gasoline. Ethanol is hydrophilic and will separate out of solution due to the presence of added water, or abrupt temperature changes. These are indisputable facts.

You may have gotten great results due to diligent maintenance, never leaving fuel in a tank for months or years without use, or a host of other factors. The bottom line is not if, but when ethanol will totally destroy a component of your fuel system.
 
Posts: 1488 | Location: Winston-Salem  | Registered: April 01, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
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quote:
Originally posted by Rev. A. J. Forsyth:
[The bottom line is not if, but when ethanol will totally destroy a component of your fuel system.

I've never had ethanol destroy fuel system components (well, unless failing seals on a thirty-year-old string trimmer can be blamed on ethanol), but it has given me plenty of grief in my winter-time small engines. Thus I never use it, anymore, in any of my small engines.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
"If we let things terrify us, life will not be worth living." -- Seneca the Younger, Roman Stoic philosopher
"The dominant media is no more ``mainstream`` than leftists are liberals." -- me
 
Posts: 20847 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of cas
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I'd like to know where you're getting 40 year old OEM parts from? Big Grin

Same name maybe, and that's about it. Not even made on the same side of the planet.



It's not that putting a gun in your mouth and pulling the trigger is bad for you, you just have a cheap inferior head!
 
Posts: 18912 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Power is nothing
without control
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What I don’t get is who still wants ethanol in the gas these days? The left don’t want it anymore because it isn’t green enough, and the right never wanted it in the first place. The oil companies and car companies probably don’t care one way or the other. I guess maybe the big farming conglomerates and the corn lobby? I’m not even sure the individual farmers actually want anyone putting ethanol in their gas.

I really don’t know why this is still a thing.

- Bret
 
Posts: 2320 | Location: OH | Registered: March 03, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
No ethanol!
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It was definitely a corn lobby thing at the same time public perception of reducing our dependence on mid east oil was at high point. I have had 10% ethanol issues with small motor carbs including my very own MTD mower.

<<< see cut


------------------
The plural of anecdote is not data. -Frank Kotsonis
 
Posts: 1679 | Location: Berks Co PA | Registered: December 20, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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