...even among those who are otherwise inclined to support them.

1. Place "No Right Turn On Red" signs where they're not visible from the stop line.
   
2. Have a cop camp out near said posted intersection awaiting drivers inevitably missing said sign.
   
3. Issue tickets to drivers that not only assess a fine, but put points on their driving record, thus increasing their already-expensive car insurance.
   
   (This, btw, is what's called a "cheap stop." They're nothing more than revenue generators for the municipalities and a way for cops to fill allegedly non-existent traffic ticket quotas.)
   
   
4. When driver goes to pay for the ticket, suggest they "Call the Prosecutor's Office and request the points not be assessed."
   
5. Upon driver calling, inform them "Oh no. There's two points. We have to schedule a pre-trial hearing with the Prosecutor. We'll send you an appointment card."
   

Yup.
Nothing feels as good as being a law abiding citizen who get the book thrown at them every time you go 1/2 mph above the limit but see other demographics literally get away with murder.

quote:

Place "No Right Turn On Red" signs where they're not visible from the stop line.

Take pictures from the spot where you have to stop, or better yet, take dash cam video.

Perhaps the judge would be interested to see the evidence and/or share it with the media.

quote:

Originally posted by h2oys:
Take pictures from the spot where you have to stop, or better yet, take dash cam video.

Oh, you can best believe that's going to happen now. I would have simply paid the verkakte fine, particularly if they'd simply agreed to waive the points. But, no: They have to make a big ordeal of it. Well, I'm retired. I have time. And now they've annoyed me.

quote:

Originally posted by h2oys:
Perhaps the judge would be interested to see the evidence and/or share it with the media.

Prosecutor gives me any shit and we may just find out.

Good luck.

You sound like my kind of person. Good luck.

I got a chickenshit ticket last year in NM. Speed limit change with no posted sign in my direction. I had to decide on the spot if I wanted to plead or fight, and the only way to fight it was to appear in four days, then appear again for court in a month. They set it up like this to inconvience out of town travelers, and incentivize you to pay the $260 or so fine. Oh it pissed me off immensely. I ended up paying $500 for a lawyer to fight it and won. It was worth every penny to throw a wrench into their little racket. They count on you taking the cheapest route out.

quote:

Originally posted by wolfe 21:
You sound like my kind of person. Good luck.

Thanks!

MDOT guidelines say:

quote:

When used, the NO TURN ON RED sign shall be located above or adjacent to the traffic signal or as close as possible to the point where the turn is made, or at both locations. One or more of the signs should be visible to a driver intending to turn, at the point where the turn is made.

If this one is like nearly every other "NO TURN ON RED" sign I've seen, it misses those guidelines by a country mile. I'll go look. If I'm right there will be photos. And I may just give my land shark a call.

Yes, I will actually spend more money than the fine would be just to screw with these people. Screw with me and I may just screw right back.

Let us assume that you fight this, you are found not guilty, AND you are able to show that the sign does not meet DOT standards.

If all of the above conditions are true, would there be a valid lawsuit to recover your attorney costs? Maybe with an added aggravation fee?

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
Let us assume that you fight this, you are found not guilty, AND you are able to show that the sign does not meet DOT standards.

If all of the above conditions are true, would there be a valid lawsuit to recover your attorney costs? Maybe with an added aggravation fee?

Great question!

We have one of those "No turn on Red" signs over by me. I was glancing left to observe traffic as I was coming to a stop. Traffic cleared and I was about to proceed when I swear I remembered the sign being here after they re-did the intersection. Looked all over, didn't see it because it was behind me.

Turns out they are going to get rid of it because there's no reason for one at that intersection.

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by V-Tail:
Let us assume that you fight this, you are found not guilty, AND you are able to show that the sign does not meet DOT standards.

If all of the above conditions are true, would there be a valid lawsuit to recover your attorney costs? Maybe with an added aggravation fee?

Dunno.

One step at a time. First have to examine the location, sign and relationships between them, and talk to my attorney. I'll go from there.

dsiets, they are required, by law, to have a good reason for that sign being there. And things like "just because" don't cut it. Has to be things like "lots of accidents from people turning right on red" or the like.

Where is this at? I'm assuming S/E Michigan.

I got hit with exactly the same thing when I moved into a new city.

From the freeway off ramp, there's a slightly angled right turn lane. Two traffic lights facing my direction, one's head on and the other is aligned with the right turn lane. I see the traffic is clear. Made the turn.

Got immediately followed by a cop hiding on the side of the exit. Tells me there's a "no turn on red" sign. The sign was under the traffic light facing head on to the traffic going left. Plus it's a tiny sign. Plus the setting sun behind the traffic light makes it that you can't see the sign.

Years later, I see they made the sign bigger and under the traffic light facing the traffic turning right. Someone must have complained.

quote:

Originally posted by shovelhead:
Where is this at? I'm assuming S/E Michigan.

Yeah.

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
...even among those who are otherwise inclined to support them.

In today’s climate of BLM vitriol, anti-police activism, and horrifying headlines of officers falling in the line of duty, it’s easy to forget the many thousands of garden-variety pencil-dick local cops out there, staking out ambush positions to deal out citations and pump revenue into local coffers. Confusing signage, counter-intuitive speed limit transitions, etc. draw them in like hyenas to a watering hole. Then post-citation processes make it impossible for anyone with work responsibilities or not residing locally to do anything else but roll over and pay the fine. It is the modern equivalent of classical “highway robbery” without the flintlock pistols and English accents.

quote:

Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
I got a chickenshit ticket last year in NM. Speed limit change with no posted sign in my direction. I had to decide on the spot if I wanted to plead or fight, and the only way to fight it was to appear in four days, then appear again for court in a month. They set it up like this to inconvience out of town travelers, and incentivize you to pay the $260 or so fine. Oh it pissed me off immensely. I ended up paying $500 for a lawyer to fight it and won. It was worth every penny to throw a wrench into their little racket. They count on you taking the cheapest route out.

Fuckn' Aye bubba.

quote:

Originally posted by eclayton:

quote:

Originally posted by ensigmatic:
...even among those who are otherwise inclined to support them.

In today’s climate of BLM vitriol, anti-police activism, and horrifying headlines of officers falling in the line of duty, it’s easy to forget the many thousands of garden-variety pencil-dick local cops out there, staking out ambush positions to deal out citations and pump revenue into local coffers. Confusing signage, counter-intuitive speed limit transitions, etc. draw them in like hyenas to a watering hole. Then post-citation processes make it impossible for anyone with work responsibilities or not residing locally to do anything else but roll over and pay the fine. It is the modern equivalent of classical “highway robbery” without the flintlock pistols and English accents.

I never seen or met any of these garden variety cops you refer to. There seems to be about enough name calling, insulting and blame gaming toward LE lately, isn't there. I have seen LE enforcing traffic laws when we make honest mistakes or just plain ignore rules of the roads. You aint helping the OPs cause any by your comments. Sure, some areas we operate a vehicle in are tricky. I doubt its to trap us. Either way you go OP, do it level headed and respectful. Stuff happens. Best of luck.

quote:

Originally posted by David Lee:
I never seen or met any of these garden variety cops you refer to. There seems to be about enough name calling, insulting and blame gaming toward LE lately, isn't there. I have seen LE enforcing traffic laws when we make honest mistakes or just plain ignore rules of the roads. You aint helping the OPs cause any by your comments. Sure, some areas we operate a vehicle in are tricky. I doubt its to trap us. Either way you go OP, do it level headed and respectful. Stuff happens. Best of luck.

Speed traps exist, they are often well known, held in high favor by local officials, and unrelated to safety considerations. The one in the small town where I grew up was referred to by locals as “The Speed Trap;” it was well known to anyone of driving age. You could give someone directions to your house using it as a landmark, i.e., “turn left just before you get to the Speed Trap.” If you were from out of town, you had just about zero chance of entering that stretch as the legally posted speed, unless you were fortunate to be stuck behind a local who saw it coming and slowed down for both of you. And it was manned 24/7 by a well-concealed officer with a radar gun. The town council could have fixed at any time the confusing conditions that led to so many traffic infractions at that site; the fact that they didn’t, but instead gave it dedicated stake-out coverage from their tiny 10-man police force, tells me that they enjoyed the revenue it produced, without the discomfort of having to tax their own residents who elected them.

That was one of several such traps I’ve known as a local resident over the years, and I’ve fallen into several more as the hapless outsider. If there is blame to assign, I place it on local officials, not the police per se, but then again they know they are part of running a racket.

However, I do agree with you in recommending the OP approach the process in a level-headed manner and I also wish him luck.