Obviously this will probably strike a strong response from people on either side, which I understand. I understand physician assisted death is allowed in some states, but don’t know the details and I think for some the people who help them get there if out of state, can be prosecuted for assisting in suicide.

I watched my dad suffer after multiple minor strokes we didn’t know about to then a major stroke that left him in a care facility he would never leave until he died. He suffered in that facility being paralyzed and having dementia. He so badly wanted me to bring him a gun to end it. Eventually he had another stroke and was very unresponsive and I demanded the facility give him morphine as no one could say if he was in pain or not. They didn’t want to do it, but I fought them hard and threatened to report a lot. Within one hour of the first dose of morphine my dad died. I feel bittersweet as I feel what I did caused his death, but I also ended his suffering.

At this very moment we are dealing with a good friend who was a high level government person (in a good government arena) who suddenly has gone from having been an unbelievably intelligent person with world experience to now being like my dad. He has been diagnosed with “Body Dementia” and is retired. He fell and went to a rehab facility and has been going downhill FAST! He got COVID when his home health person took him out for a haircut and ended up falling at home. He was taken to a rehab center for the fall and my wife was able to visit him now that he is no longer COVID positive. He is in full mental dementia with hallucinations and can’t even feed himself. So terrible to see a man of great intelligence go from such high stature to where he is now and now he will not be released and basically wait to die like my dad.

Why have to suffer when you are in this state when there are drugs that can let you pass peacefully. This is just so frustrating.

I don’t ever want to be in this situation of suffering in a home just waiting to die.

Let the person file a document in advance that this is what they want, then when it comes time, make a video and sign every freaking lawsuit waiver releasing all from any responsibility.

I have worked for a funeral home and for an in patient Hospice care center and 30 years of police work. So I am experienced with all manner of death. And this experience has left me with the fervent hope that when my time comes, it happens quickly. If a Doctor can assist me at end of life, I am all for it!

I believe this is what one of my parents would want, not both necessarily, but for sure 1 would want to exit the scene if things went that badly.
I feel the same way.

I'm in your camp. I have said for years that this should be legal.

Perhaps one question to ask in parallel, aside from government and those who abide by the Hippocratic oath, is does religion allow it? Christianity, Judaism, Shintoism, Hinduism. At least two seem to forbid it? If religion / God accepted it, perhaps gov / doc would as well?

What's the original basis behind the prohibition?

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
Perhaps one question to ask in parallel, aside from government and those who abide by the Hippocratic oath, is does religion allow it? Christianity, Judaism, Shintoism, Hinduism. At least two seem to forbid it? If religion / God accepted it, perhaps gov / doc would as well?

What's the original basis behind the prohibition?

I think it’s the taking of a life. Acting as God.

quote:

Originally posted by konata88:
What's the original basis behind the prohibition?

Maybe it’s because of Hippocrates’ “do no harm”. I have my own thought on the subject but am a little tied up at the moment. I’ll come back at this spot a little later and explain my position.

Back.

Early in my career, I was an idealistic chap. You know, they drilled into your head that “First, do no harm”. So, of course, doctors should never involve themselves in the activity of assisting ending a patient’s life, no matter what.

But, as my career progressed and seeing more and more untreatable incurable pain and suffering, plus being more conscious of my own mortality as I get older, my position has changed. I’m now firmly in the camp of physician assisted euthanasia (PAE). “Do mo harm” no longer means not assisting ending a life no matter what. Do no harm can also mean ending incurable suffering. How can anyone see immensely suffering terminally ill patients and honestly say they need to continue at it? If you, as a doctor, can help relieve that suffering, you should legally be allowed to do so. I’m not saying all docs are required to carry out PAE, if patients request it. I’m just saying the law should allow them to perform it, if they choose.

Bottom line is, I am with OP on this.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: 12131,

I agree with the OP that it should be allowed without playing games. We put down pets when the time comes because it would be inhumane to let them suffer; yet we don’t grant the same humaneness to humans.

I have a feeling that this very question will be on my radar very soon.
My mother is 99.

She’s said that “she’s just tired of living here” and wanting to go home and points up to the sky.
She’s outlived her eyesight, her hearing and ALL the people in her wedding picture and all or just about all of her class reunions she *used* to attend. There’s just too many folks gone. At 99 it goes with the territory I suppose.

She’s tired of putting up with the day to day but her stubborn German upbringing demands that she push on.
It will be painful but it she really is just tired of it all.
I don’t think for a minute that a physician assist would be on her radar but a natural escape? I think she’d be all in and then some.

I think one could travel to a few of the states that allow it. I think there are subtle ways one can be assisted with transitioning to the final chapter.

Not something most of us want to think about. I don’t have a problem when one deciding to do so.

Currently, PAE is legal in 11 states plus DC.

CA
CO
DE
HI
ME
MT
NJ
NM
OR
VT
WA

There’s no reason to make someone suffer unnecessarily. I certainly don’t need my state officials deciding that for me.

Having good legal directive documents is important. You can, for example, direct that food and water be withheld. Other specifics such as no antibiotics or other medications not needed for pain control or comfort can be directed.

The important thing is that the document be properly executed and easily available to your designated representative. Your illness could come on suddenly. The hospital or care facility will not withhold life prolonging medical care without that document.

Be sure your designees are listed, with alternates in case one or more are unavailable. If the primary person isn't immediately available, the facility probably will not stop treatment or start hospice until they are contacted.

Our experience has been that an ill older person who decides they want to die is no longer able to do it themselves. They are either too cognitively or physically disabled to walk off into the woods or jump in the river. There are probably some medicines which overdosed in combination could be fatal, but I don't think it likely that the person would manage it alone.

Getting government involved will just muck it up. Medically supervised suicide should be legal, presuming proper documented directives while the person is mentally competent.

OP has it right, IMO.

It's nobody else's business other than the sufferer and the ones assisting them.

We are kinder to our pets in these situations than to our fellow humans.

Long story short: Generally, I'm for it to end pain and suffering if there are limited checks & balances such as preventing unethical heirs from euthanizing someone for their advantage.

Long version:
Unfortunately, the unscrupulous heir using PAE to their advantage happened in my family. The current power of attorney and future executor of the estate was being treated with both radiation and chemo for cancer, and a sibling got power of attorney and executor changed with zero discussion. The new power of attorney and executor is a narcissistic conniving dirtbag that burns bridges left and right (e.g. even own children will have nothing to do with her). Within 30 days of gaining power of attorney, had convinced the ailing patriarch of the family to have their pacemaker lowered to a level that they'd fall asleep and never wake up. Other siblings given 24 hr notice during winter in Upper Midwest to say their good bye's in person. Funeral happened in a blizzard and I drove my side of the family 60 miles in 4x4. Funeral, distribution of estate, etc. were all run like a dictatorship without discussing with other siblings. Things that can be audited like money/insurance happened honestly, but physical goods were as weaselly as you can expect from that ilk. I did my best to stay out of the resulting shit show, but had to intervene at one point to prevent inherited firearm transfer across state lines from breaking federal laws. Suffice it to say, grief combined with unethical behavior breaks lifelong family bonds.

I'd like to see limited checks and balances. For example, a change in power of attorney (notice I said a change not a first time POA) within XX (e.g. 90) days of PAE would require court involvement. As Fly-Sig wrote, have your wills/trusts/POA/medical directives laid out well in advance of end of life and I'll add to make sure you review/update periodically or at significant milestones (e.g. death of spouse or retirement).

Personally, I had mine created in 2005 within months of the Terri Schiavo case that made national news. A few years ago, JHE helped me find an attorney to update since it had been 10+ years (i.e. laws changed) and I had experienced life milestones (e.g. my state of residence changed).

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tatortodd,

I struggle with this one.

As a Christian, I believe that human life is sacred. I don't like the idea of playing God, and feel that it's up to Him to decide when I'm born and when I die.

On the other hand, I seen a lot of death, and have no desire to spend months lying in bed incoherent and hooked up to a bunch of tubes. Nor to I have any desire to make my family deal with my demential-riddle ravings and wondering for years at the end of my life. I'm not afraid of death, but I am afraid of a long, drawn-out dying process. Like YooperSigs said...when it comes I want it to be quick.

I have no problem with a scenario like StorminNormin described in the OP...turning up the morphine on an unresponsive patient who is probably in pain and just letting them slip away. That honestly seems like the loving and caring thing to do in that situation, and what I'd hope my kids would do for me in the same situation.

My concern is that if it's legalized, it won't be limited to those scenarios, though. Like others have said, dishonest and selfish heirs could try to speed the process when the person is still viable, or even worse, you could have doctors talking patients into it that don't need to die. Especially when there's financial incentive for them to do so. I've read stories about Canadian GWOT vets who are undergoing treatment for wartime injuries through their national health system who have been offered or pressured to pursue medically assisted suicide rather than continuing to pursue treatment. That's a problem.

Ultimately, I don't trust society, the medical system, or the courts to do the right thing.

I've always wondered why we end our pets life - telling ourselves they're suffering and it's more 'humane' and yet we don't do the same for people. Wouldn't that be the most humane/compassionate thing to do? Going to hospice absolutely terrifies me. I watched my grandfather spend months in hospice while battling incurable cancer. He was in incredible pain that the highest 'safe' doses of pain meds couldn't touch. It's ridiculous that he had so suffer for so long when a simple 'unsafe' dose of those same meds could have ended his suffering.

I believe it was Para that once said, "If you don't own your existence, you don't own anything."

Both of my parents passed in a Hospice facility; they died just about eight months apart. I'm grateful that their last few days were mostly unconscious, but a quicker and painless end of their choosing would have been even better.

92fstech brings up good points about avoiding the monetization of the topic, and it isn't that I want life to become cheaper, but I'm with Para on this matter in general.

Anything that can be abused will be abused, sooner or later, regardless of relationship. Weather that be an attorney, a government, an unscrupulous family member, friend, or anyone who has something to gain by controlling the directive.

tatortodd and 92fstech are correct that it needs to be scrutinized and have checks and balances; human nature hasn’t changed. But at the end of the day, nobody should forbid me to make that decision.

Excellent topic StorminNormin.