Sadly, I believe we're wasting our time trying to speak facts or reason to those on the far left extreme. They believe what they want to believe. No amount of common sense, reason or recitation of facts or statistics is going to move their needle one micron to the right of far left.

quote:

Originally posted by markand:
Sadly, I believe we're wasting our time trying to speak facts or reason to those on the far left extreme...

I totally agree. But there are lots of non-gun owners who are more reasonable. Those people will listen to facts and hopefully not use emotions.

One guy in my weekly coffee group (all staunch conservatives, including him) once blurted out "Yeah, they should ban assault rifles." No one replied, so I said "Joe, you drive an F150. Three have been used in drunk driving fatalities, you have to turn yours in." He said "I don't even drink" and then saw the light.

It's a waste of time to discuss anything with die-hard liberal gun grabbers, but there are still lots of people in the middle who will listen to facts.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Sigmund,

Silence signals we have no basis to refute them, or that we have surrendered. So we must speak up. We must not let them think they are a majority and have won.

While in reality we go silent when we don't see progress, and are moving our energies to the next likely step, they don't recognize what is happening is a calm before the storm.

My 50 year old neighbor, Chinese, totally freaked out when she discovered that I had three loaded handguns in the kitchen.

She was convinced that one of them would shoot her all by itself.

Yes, she does work at the University of Arizona.

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:
My 50 year old neighbor, Chinese, totally freaked out when she discovered that I had three loaded handguns in the kitchen.

She was convinced that one of them would shoot her all by itself.

Yes, she does work at the University of Arizona.

Interesting. I have neighbors from China that own their own restaurant (guess what they make) and both came into the shop I work at to purchase handguns. The husband was in the Chinese military and both are US citizens. They LOVE the idea of being able to protect their business and family, not waiting for the government to help them.

New anti-gun talking points:

1] "Guns are the leading cause of death for children aged 1 to 18."

Fact check: Yeah, most are inner city gangs, and are the result of gang enforcement task forces being defunded. Fewer felons in prison.

Note the age range is 1-18. They chose that specific age range since the statistics favor the agenda. Newborn to 18 would have a different outcome as would 1-17.

2] "States with stricter gun laws have fewer gun deaths per capita."

This come from some study done at an east coast school, and funded by Bloomberg. They seem to point at Wyoming as having a lot of gun deaths per capita, but I have no idea how to fact check this, yet.

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:
New anti-gun talking points:


2] "States with stricter gun laws have fewer gun deaths per capita."

This come from some study done at an east coast school, and funded by Bloomberg. They seem to point at Wyoming as having a lot of gun deaths per capita, but I have no idea how to fact check this, yet.

We have spotty internet on vacation, and my response disappeared into the ether. But, you can be certain the "study" was designed to provide the answer Bloomberg wanted. The quote you gave is intentionally misleading and easily debunked.

Strict gun laws is undefined and easily cherry picked.

Death is but one undesirable outcome. Severe injury, robbery without being killed, raped without being killed, etc are also bad outcomes which are not part of death by gunshot.

Suicide may be higher in WY than a stricter state. More guns means more suicide by gun, but fewer guns means suicide by other methods. Overall suicide rate is not affected by gun availability with the very narrow exception of one study showing a slight increase in college age males. It is safe to say gun prevalence does not increase suicide rate as a generalization.

Gun laws only impact lawful gun ownership, not criminal possession or law enforcement or military. This suggests lots of questions about Bloomberg's methodology and conclusion.

In the UK they have quite strict gun laws, which has led to an epidemic of knife crime. Dead by stabbing is every bit as bad as death by gunshot, but hurray the UK gun laws are a success because they have fewer gun deaths than Wyoming?

Note that only a very few specific cities and counties have a very large portion of murders. Looking at city or county data would look very different than the state level. As we know, it is the human not the tool responsible for violence, so if the rest of the state is safe it will water down the stats for the violent city.

Note, too, that the per capita number is watered down in a large city. NY City has a huge number of people. Their per capita murder rate might not look so terrible because they have a lot of people, yet the total number of murders may be very high. And many murders may be by other means than guns, which may have nothing to do with how strict the gun laws are.

This is why people like John Lott are valuable. They have the ability to look at these issues in a meaningful way. Bloomberg is junk, as are most "studies" in the media. Every single time I've dug into one it has been laughably garbage and intentionally misleading.

quote:

Originally posted by josp:

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:
My 50 year old neighbor, Chinese, totally freaked out when she discovered that I had three loaded handguns in the kitchen.

She was convinced that one of them would shoot her all by itself.

Yes, she does work at the University of Arizona.

Interesting. I have neighbors from China that own their own restaurant (guess what they make) and both came into the shop I work at to purchase handguns. The husband was in the Chinese military and both are US citizens. They LOVE the idea of being able to protect their business and family, not waiting for the government to help them.

This woman I mentioned is a real piece of work. She freaks out at anything that goes bump in the night. She has called the Tucson Police several times to report that someone is on her roof and is now being labeled by 911 operators as "nuts".

She is divorced and is now seeking a new husband. I pity the man who would marry a "complete shit show".

When the 2A comes up in my orbit I calmly state I have three stories for you. 1. After Pearl Harbor and the stunning success of the Japanese navy their were elements that were advocating for Japan to invade the United States. Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto killed such plans by stating there will be no invasion because we would be met with a rifle behind every blade of grass. So, widespread gun ownership in this country made this possible invader think twice.

2. Ever wonder why two world wars raged around Switzerland? Every able body male does mandatory military service. They are issued an (and I word it this way carefully) assault style rifle. A weapon of war. They can buy that rifle at the end of their service. And, they have to obtain a permit. They are fined if their weapon doesn't function right. So, in most every Swiss household is a functioning rifle kept in good working order. And, they have been put their with the idea to repel invaders. Hitler never dared. Makes one think.

3. I retell the story of the Battle of Athens, Tennessee. I remain calm as I can. I don't ask for further discussion. They'll either think or they won't, but my duty has been done.

quote:

Originally posted by goose5:
the Battle of Athens, Tennessee.

Thank you for mentioning that. I learned something today.

I keep seeing this thread but couldn't think of anything that could make a differnece. But then I thought of something that might move the needle so to speak:

"You sure are a stupid motherfucker aren't you"

So I guess that could help in some limited circumstances. Has anyone tried that yet ? Any empircal evidence may help here.

Why not just ask them to explain the term "Outlaw"?

Someone who does not give a shit about any law regulating human behavior.

"Do not try to understand them...and do not try to make them understand you. That is because they are a breed apart and make no sense".

Check your state constitution. NY's Article XII says "The defense and protection of the state and of the United States is
an obligation of all persons within the state". The earlier version of the document basically said " it is the duty of every man who enjoys the protection of society to be prepared and willing to defend it". Ergo, we the people are the militia. I'd also recommend reading Heller and Bruin.

The one I've been using lately to address the "the militia means the military" tack is this:

What government in the history of ever had to put in writing that the government has a right to keep a military? If that's what that means, why does it follow on the heels of freedom of religion, speech, press, assembly, and petition and then immediately precede the amendments dealing with the quartering of soldiers in private homes and then unreasonable search and seizure? Those are rights of the people recognized and protected by the constitution, so why sandwich some bullshit about protecting the government being able to keep a military in there? Unless that's not what that means at all, and that this a governing document written by people who'd just won their freedom from an oppressive foreign power and didn't want to see it happen again here, you know, evidenced by the first four amendments.

Calmly throw them out of a helicopter?