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crazy heart
Picture of mod29
posted
Ok fellahs, I need your help.
To honor our 45th president, I purchased a Ruger #1 chambered for 45-70.
I’ve been wanting one for a long time and finally pulled the trigger just after the first of the year.

My first trip to the range was with factory Winchester 300-gr ammunition.
It was not very accurate in my rifle, and it beat the hell out of me.
I only managed 20 shots from the bench before I wimped out.
This didn’t really surprise me. I expected some recoil.

Alright, I thought. I’ll reload some of my own and drop the power to a more comfortable level.
After all, my main interest in this nice rifle is informal target shooting.
Just like my .44 magnum revolvers, while I enjoy the occasional full-power experience, I reload light magnum loads for target shooting.
Much more enjoyable and easier on the gun.

So I purchased a box of Oregon Trail Laser-Cast 405-gr bullets and two pounds of IMR-4198 powder.
I grabbed my Lyman reloading manual and went to the 1873 Springfield (Trapdoor) section to look for the lightest loads.
For reference, this manual has 3 sections for the 45-70, with the Trapdoor loads being the lightest by far.

The load data for this weight bullet using IMR-4198 powder started at 31.5 grs, standard primer.
This should result in a muzzle velocity of 1312 FPS.
So I loaded up 10 rounds.
And 10 more at 32.0 grs, 10 more at 32.5, and 10 more at 33.0, all well below the maximum of 35-grs.
I went to the range yesterday to give them a try.
(For reference, the Ruger #1 section of the manual for this combination of bullet-powder starts at 40 grs, max 44.5 grs).

Ok, these were worse than the factory loads! More recoil! Holy hell does this thing kick!
I had my 13 year old shooting buddy with me (GF’s kid).
I give him credit for having the courage to shoot this thing. Yikes.
We managed to shoot all of the 31.5 gr stuff and all the 32.0 gr.
But we were both very ready to call it quits after that. We never did shoot any of the more powerful loads.


Here’s the deal: My rifle really liked the 31.5 gr loads. I was only shooting at 25 yards because of the iron sights and trying to work up some loads (and my aging eyes aren’t what they used to be).
But my first group with that load was 6 shots basically dead-center, group measuring an inch and a quarter. I was happy with that.
It didn’t shoot the 32.0 gr load as well.

The bullets did not lead my barrel at all, and the powder shot very clean. I was very happy with both components, no complaints at all on that score.

This is a long-winded way of asking if there’s any published loads for this bullet / powder combo that is lower power! (Less recoil!)

Perhaps I could just drop the powder charge by maybe 5 grs and see what happens, but I would really feel more comfortable following some kind of published data.

What do you guys think? Do you have a pet load to share?
Thanks fellahs!
 
Posts: 1157 | Location: WA | Registered: January 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Muzzle flash
aficionado
Picture of flashguy
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I take it you've never experienced shooting a .458 Win Mag (I have). Shooting more that just a few of those is not fun.

flashguy




Texan by choice, not accident of birth

When they ask me, "Paper or plastic?" I just say, "Doesn't matter to me. I am bi-sacksual."
 
Posts: 18974 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Blue68f100
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Might try dropping down to a 300gr bullet, it would soften the recoil some. May want to add some kind of recoil absorbing pad to the gun or your shoulder. You could try using TB and work on lowering the charge down more. There are powders that can be down loaded to 60% that will help too.

Yes if you want recoil the 458 Win Mag is the most powerful I have shot. I was young back then and said 1 was enough. I was my neighbors gun that he got for bear hunting. I told him the easiest way to shoot that gun was to butt it up against a telephone pole or tree when you pull the trigger and hope it does not come down Big Grin

If you want to shoot it more you may try using a lead sled. I use one when working up loads to minimize the weakest link (me). I've got a setup where mine hooks on the front of my shooting bench. So the bench takes the blow, feels like a 22lr. This works when I shoot my 458 SOCOM. The only thing is that it moved my 70# bench back 1/4" in 5 shoots. I've had to stake the bench to keep it form moving. My SOCOM has a shock absorbing stock and it's not really bad at all. Like shooting a shotgun.


David

P229R 9mm, Nitron, Beavertail Frame, Night Sights, DA/SA, SRT & Short Reach Trigger
 
Posts: 3417 | Location: Piney Woods of East Texas | Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of jmorris
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My 45-70 shoots best with fairly stout loads (58 grains of 3031 with a 350 grain JHP), I really don't like shooting it much with them unless I am killing something.

3 shots with just a shirt between the pad and my shoulder will leave it bruised, my 50 BMG with its many extra pounds and muzzle brake is much more pleasant to shoot, but it's not much fun to carry.

If you are just wanting a plinker for you and your buddy to have fun with try 10.0 grains of unique with a .457 round ball. Cost less for a lot more rounds and very little recoil.
 
Posts: 424 | Location: DFW | Registered: May 03, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of George43
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Try shooting standing up as opposed to from the bench.




A gun in the hand is worth more than ten policemen on the phone.
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Posts: 3208 | Location: Spring, Texas | Registered: June 26, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Rule #1: Use enough gun
Picture of Bigboreshooter
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The factory recoil pads on Ruger No. 1's do not soak up much recoil. Put a Pachmayr Decelerator pad on it and your shoulder will be much happier.



When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed. Luke 11:21


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Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists." -- George W. Bush

 
Posts: 13573 | Location: Birmingham, Alabama | Registered: February 25, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of fredj338
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I shoot a Marlin GuideGun. If yo uwant softer recoil, use the starting data in the Trapdoor category. If the recoil still bothers, you can always go something like 8gr of unique & a 300gr LFP. Use an over powder Dacron wad. If that recoil bothers you, sell the rifle.


IF YOU AREN'T HANDLOADING, YOU AREN'T SHOOTING ENOUGH!
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Posts: 7652 | Location: ca, usa | Registered: February 17, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of sigcrazy7
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^^^The OP already stated he was making loads out of the Springfield Trapdoor section of his manual using 31.5 grains of 4198.

Better get you a ton of Trail Boss and try around 13 grains. That ought to be soft shooting.



[i]
 
Posts: 5063 | Location: Utah | Registered: December 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Little ray
of sunshine
Picture of jhe888
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Try the light bullets at 1300 fps for less recoil. You dropped the velocity, but increased the bullet weight.

And yes, try some a more recoil-absorbing pad. That can help quite a bit. I changed my 1895's recoil pad for a Kick-Eez. It is significantly softer, and also gave me a little more length of pull, which I need.

I mostly use 300 and 350 grain bullets, but I push them up to 1800 fps. I am not particularly recoil sensitive.

You can load some real thumpers in that Number 1 rifle. You can push the 300 grain bullets to 2300 fps, and the 400 grain slugs to 1900. Those are only safe in the No. 1 or converted Mausers. Those will get your attention, and show you why they call it the poor man's .458 magnum.




The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything.
 
Posts: 44446 | Location: Texas | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
crazy heart
Picture of mod29
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Appreciate the feedback, guys.

As I'm happy with the bullet/powder combo, what I'm really asking for is published or real-world experience with reduced powder charges using same.

I suppose I could just start backing off a few grains, starting at maybe 29 grs and see what happens.

Thoughts?
 
Posts: 1157 | Location: WA | Registered: January 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Staring back
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Picture of Gustofer
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I've not shot the Ruger #1 in a 45-70, but I frequently shoot my Marlin Guide gun and my Sharps (both 45-70).

With the Marlin I load the same as you with a 405 and 31.5gr of 4198. In this rifle I would describe the recoil as mild-moderate. I could shoot it all day without a problem, and I'm not a fan of recoil.

I also shoot 500gr with 28gr of 4198 out of the Sharps. Same same. Mild to moderate and could shoot it all day.

I'd guess, then, it's likely the rifle and you might look for a better recoil pad.

Good luck. It's a great caliber.

Also, with those big-assed bullets, there's not much of a need (IMO) to push them much faster than 1300. As long as you know your drop, they are about as effective at dropping game out to a couple hundred yards as getting hit by a train. No sense in separating your shoulder when you don't need to.


________________________________________________________

"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy." Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 13472 | Location: Montana | Registered: November 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
crazy heart
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Gustofer, I agree that the 45-70 is an awesome caliber. When I was considering the Ruger #1, that was the only caliber I was interested in.

Mostly because of the straight-wall case and reloading potential.

The Ruger #1 is actually a pretty compact rifle. I'm sure that contributes to the felt recoil.

That load of 31.5 gr of 4198 and 405 gr bullet feels a lot like my Ithaca 12-ga 18" barreled riot shotgun, shooting Winchester high-base buckshot. And that's like a punch in the mouth! lol

I'll get this figured out in time. I really like the rifle. It's a high-quality firearm.

I see you're in Montana. Color me jealous. Smile
 
Posts: 1157 | Location: WA | Registered: January 07, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
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If your intent is only to do target shooting, definitely pick up some Trailboss. Light shooting and extremely consistent (and thus, accurate) out of my Marlin 1895G. I found that 12.5gr worked best with 405gr hard cast in my gun. These chronographed at about 1020FPS.

I've loaded IMR-4198 under a 300gr JHP, from 53.7gr up to 57.2gr (chronographed at 2250fps). While more punishing than the Trailboss loads by far, they still weren't nearly as bad as the 325GR Leverevolution stuff I bought, even at the max charge weight.
 
Posts: 2598 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of jmorris
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One other thing you could do I build or buy a rest that will absorb the recoil.

Shoot any load you want and it's like shooting them out of the same rifle if it weighed another 30 or 40 pounds, takes the "bite" right out of them.

This is one I put together.

 
Posts: 424 | Location: DFW | Registered: May 03, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Throwin sparks
makin knives
Picture of sybo
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In my "All-Weather" Henry 45-70 I can throw 50 rds downrange in mine and not flinch. Recoil was NEVER something that bothered me. Of course, I'm one that enjoys a .458 Win-mag! I'm weird...... try a lighter bullet, I use Hornady Leverevolution bullets in mine! Standing shots and not as brutal as a bench. Enjoy your boomer!!
 
Posts: 4558 | Location: Nashville Tn | Registered: October 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of cxm
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I shoot a good bit of 45-70 and the 405gr cast bullet is all I load. I stick to factory duplication loads (trapdoor strength.)

These loads are used in both a trapdoor musket, a trapdoor Officers Carbine and a couple of Winchester 1886 lever actions.

I would describe the recoil as being similar to a 12ga shotgun recoil.

You didn't say from what position you shot your loads, but to me at least I prefer to shoot from a standing position... from a bench the 45-70 is a lot less pleasant to shoot...

FWIW

Chuck


Hoist on High the Bonny Blue Flag that Bears the Single Star!!!

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Posts: 1254 | Location: Florida, CSA | Registered: September 02, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of markstempski
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quote:
Originally posted by cxm:
I shoot a good bit of 45-70 and the 405gr cast bullet is all I load. I stick to factory duplication loads (trapdoor strength.)

These loads are used in both a trapdoor musket, a trapdoor Officers Carbine and a couple of Winchester 1886 lever actions.

I would describe the recoil as being similar to a 12ga shotgun recoil.

You didn't say from what position you shot your loads, but to me at least I prefer to shoot from a standing position... from a bench the 45-70 is a lot less pleasant to shoot...

FWIW

Chuck

All been pretty much covered, yes to trail boss, yes to lighter bullets and yes to some sort of deceleration pad and not shooting from a bench. At times I have noticed that some shooters don't position the stock correctly against the shoulder gotta grab it like you love it no space for any free recoil. Is really all physics helps when one has some mass themselves and decent deltoids. I love the big thumpers out of my Marlin but didn't till I changed out the recoil pad helps that I am a chunk and former weight lifter.


Mundus Vult Decipi
 
Posts: 916 | Location: Duvall WA, USA | Registered: February 08, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of wingspar
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Ok, I was going to say to load lighter bullets, but that’s been covered. I’ve considered a 45/70 off and on for a while, but I just don’t think I’d care for the recoil. Arthritis in my shoulder and neck.

What I did buy was a Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt. Straight walled case that can be loaded down to bunny farts up to shoulder thumping loads. I typically load 260 grain bullets but have shot 325 grain bullets. Those pack some punch. Not what you wanted to hear, but another option in .45 caliber and a caliber built for us reloaders.


---------------
Gary
Will Fly for Food... and more Ammo
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Posts: 1869 | Location: Oregon | Registered: January 15, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Quit staring at my wife's Butt
Picture of XLT
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I shot 20 rds out of a 300 win mag and thought I was going to die, couldn't imagine shooting one of those.
 
Posts: 4288 | Registered: February 09, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Muzzle flash
aficionado
Picture of flashguy
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quote:
Originally posted by XLT:
I shot 20 rds out of a 300 win mag and thought I was going to die, couldn't imagine shooting one of those.
I'm not really a rifleman and have never hunted. Although I did eventually learn to enjoy shooting heavy handguns (up to .50AE) I wasn't "into" big bore rifles. A number of years ago, however, my Best Friend of many years was coming to Dallas for a day and we were to go shooting. I told him to bring his .300 Win Mag, that I wanted to shoot it. He was silent for a few seconds (thinking) and then said: "Has it been that bad a week for you?" (He knew me well.) I answered "Yes" and we did go shoot it. I think I shot 17 rounds out of it before I had exorcised my foul mood. Shooting can be SO cathartic!

flashguy




Texan by choice, not accident of birth

When they ask me, "Paper or plastic?" I just say, "Doesn't matter to me. I am bi-sacksual."
 
Posts: 18974 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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