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Picture of henryrifle
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I am using an RCBS full length sizing die to de-prime and size my .308 brass. I am using Lake City '13 brass that has been shot eight times now.

I normally use RCBS Case Lube-2 on an RCBS Case Lube Pad regularly lubing 5-10 at a time and creating a batch of 40-50 lubed cases.

I have not annealed any of this brass and I do not currently turn the necks of the cases but I do trim the cases when necessary to 2.005". I just measured a case that has been sized and it's neck thickness is .0145" thick. That does seem somewhat thick as other .308 cases measure .0115" thick.

I have never stuck a case in the die before today and today I stuck two of them!

Many of the cases (> 75%) started into the die with an unusual amount of resistance. Each time that happened, I would stop, remove the case and apply lube directly to the case. This method was effective but the cases still did not smoothly slide into the die and you could feel the expander ball really dragging as the case was lowered.

I do not apply lube to the neck or inside the case at all--only to the part below but not including the shoulder.

What has changed? Is the brass work hardened? The necks are not splitting. Have the necks become overly thick and in need of neck turning?

I do clean my dies regularly and I cleaned this one today before starting the sizing and de-priming. I clean with Windex and then lightly oil the die--not the ball.

Thanks for your help,
Henryrifle
 
Posts: 430 | Location: Atlanta | Registered: November 11, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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When is the last time you cleaned the inside of the die? Possibly it's dirty?


________________
"Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem".
(Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know to be superior in battle.)
-- Flavius Vegetius Renatus,
 
Posts: 3377 | Location: N. Texas | Registered: May 21, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I recently experienced something similar with my RCBS sizing die in .380 auto.
It felt like the die was galling the case no matter how much lube I applied.
I emailed RCBS. They said to send it to them.
I sent it and they polished the interior (I assume) and returned it in a new green box.
No charge.

PC
 
Posts: 579 | Location: NW Wyoming | Registered: November 23, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here my theory given the info in the OP.

You cleaned the die and removed every trace of remaining lube in it.

For some reason you do not lube the neck, that remains a mystery to me.

You use something other that Imperial Wax as a lube.

The neck grew thicker and you do not anneal.

You use an expander ball and do not lube the inside of the neck.

My theory is that you brass is thick and hardened at the neck and since you do not lube the neck (for some unexplained reason) you stuck the brass. There was absolutely no lubrication at the neck since you had just cleaned the die to remove any trace of lubrication.

When you use a regular die, the neck will bet shrunk more than it needs to be because of various brass thickness. Then on extraction the extra sizing you just did to the brass will be reversed by the expander ball and that action will also stretch the neck for good measure.

This is has the result of work hardening the brass faster than needed and also causing you to trim more than usual when you do trim. The thick brass from further down the case flows up and you get thicker brass.

And now with thick brass you shove up a word-hardened neck with no lubrication and voila, stuck brass.

My recommendations:
1- Throw this brass out.
2- Get a bushing die with the proper bushing for your brass, remove the expander ball.
3- Get new brass.
4- Get Imperial Wax and learn to use it, sparingly. Less is more.
5- Lube the neck, see 4 above.
6- Anneal if you can, but that's not critical or even important for case longevity; it's only really for neck tension control.

If you want to continue using your current brass, then lube the necks, inside and out But I would throw the brass away.

I explained my entire loading regimen in my thread at the top of this forum, but to recap:

1- Start with virgin brass, which goes through a mandrel to round out the mouth.
2- After first firing, anneal.
3- Resize and decap using small base bushing die with NO expander ball. (Read the details of the sizing operation and setup in the thread.)
4- Tumble 2.5 hours. Extract from media.
5- Trim, chamfer and deburr each case (Very little if any, comes off after the first trim.)
6- Prime.
7- Load powder and seat bullet.
8- Shoot the cartridge.
9- Go to 2 above.
 
Posts: 2603 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have loaded bottleneck cases for over 40 years. All I use is an RCBS case pad and case lube.
Never have I come close to sticking a case.
I do not neck turn except for 7mm T/CU and .223.
I only trim as needed.
I do not lube the case necks, inside or out, and I never saw a reason to.
There is obviously some reason for the problem, but the significant thing is that the problem happened almost as soon as the case entered the die, so case neck in not the issue as described.
So, you can do as described. You can even go out and buy a few new virgin cases and just see it they size differently.
Going off on a tangent, I have only ever had problems sizing 9x19 cases and it happens about once every two-three years. All of a sudden, sizing becomes a severe issue and I have to lube the cases. When I come back the next day, the problem doesn't exist. If I set aside logic and science, I am such with a curse from the gods.
If your problem is like mine, it has probably gone away after the full moon.
 
Posts: 140 | Registered: July 28, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by NikonUser:
Here my theory given the info in the OP.

You cleaned the die and removed every trace of remaining lube in it.

For some reason you do not lube the neck, that remains a mystery to me.

You use something other that Imperial Wax as a lube.

The neck grew thicker and you do not anneal.

You use an expander ball and do not lube the inside of the neck.

My theory is that you brass is thick and hardened at the neck and since you do not lube the neck (for some unexplained reason) you stuck the brass. There was absolutely no lubrication at the neck since you had just cleaned the die to remove any trace of lubrication.

When you use a regular die, the neck will bet shrunk more than it needs to be because of various brass thickness. Then on extraction the extra sizing you just did to the brass will be reversed by the expander ball and that action will also stretch the neck for good measure.

This is has the result of work hardening the brass faster than needed and also causing you to trim more than usual when you do trim. The thick brass from further down the case flows up and you get thicker brass.

And now with thick brass you shove up a word-hardened neck with no lubrication and voila, stuck brass.

My recommendations:
1- Throw this brass out.
2- Get a bushing die with the proper bushing for your brass, remove the expander ball.
3- Get new brass.
4- Get Imperial Wax and learn to use it, sparingly. Less is more.
5- Lube the neck, see 4 above.
6- Anneal if you can, but that's not critical or even important for case longevity; it's only really for neck tension control.

If you want to continue using your current brass, then lube the necks, inside and out But I would throw the brass away.

I explained my entire loading regimen in my thread at the top of this forum, but to recap:

1- Start with virgin brass, which goes through a mandrel to round out the mouth.
2- After first firing, anneal.
3- Resize and decap using small base bushing die with NO expander ball. (Read the details of the sizing operation and setup in the thread.)
4- Tumble 2.5 hours. Extract from media.
5- Trim, chamfer and deburr each case (Very little if any, comes off after the first trim.)
6- Prime.
7- Load powder and seat bullet.
8- Shoot the cartridge.
9- Go to 2 above.



tl;dr whole thing.

But, +1 for get imperial case wax. Anything else isn't a question of if you'll stick a case, but WHEN you'll stick a case.




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15652 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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What I write next is not an attempt to argue that I am not wrong or to argue a weak position. I am learning and appreciate the feedback. I started reloading on with a Rock Chucker Supreme kit and the instructions were very clear NOT to lube the shoulder or the neck. I have reloaded thousands of .223 and .308 rounds w/o lubing shoulders or necks without any issues or sticky cases. I say all of this to remove the mystery of why, to this point, I haven’t lubed the shoulders or internal/external parts of the neck.

I did pull out 15 rounds of once-fired Federal .308 brass and lubed on the pad as I normally do and decapping and sizing was smooth and normal. I am not discounting any of the advice above and will go back and implement better methods. I have ordered some Imperial Sizing Die Wax!

I have never used bushing dies but will go read and understand how to use and set that up.

noylj does highlight an important point about the issue with the 8-times-fired LC brass that is causing the problem—that the issue occurs just after the case contacts the die. I can tell right away that something is not right.

One more data point and a thought. 1. Data Point - I have the same issue with that brass and only that brass on the Dillon. It is much easier to get a stuck case out of a Dillon die as it is engineered to facilitate easy extractions. That said until yesterday I never used that feature. 2. Thought - My goal is to be able to find a good .308 load that exhibits good accuracy, less than 1 MOA, with a powder that meters well, like Varget, and be able to crank out hundreds at a time on the Dillon. I have been using the single stage press as I search for that load as it is much easier to precisely control powder and seating depth on the single stage press.
 
Posts: 430 | Location: Atlanta | Registered: November 11, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by henryrifle:
What I write next is not an attempt to argue that I am not wrong or to argue a weak position. I am learning and appreciate the feedback. I started reloading on with a Rock Chucker Supreme kit and the instructions were very clear NOT to lube the shoulder or the neck. I have reloaded thousands of .223 and .308 rounds w/o lubing shoulders or necks without any issues or sticky cases. I say all of this to remove the mystery of why, to this point, I haven’t lubed the shoulders or internal/external parts of the neck.

I did pull out 15 rounds of once-fired Federal .308 brass and lubed on the pad as I normally do and decapping and sizing was smooth and normal. I am not discounting any of the advice above and will go back and implement better methods. I have ordered some Imperial Sizing Die Wax!

I have never used bushing dies but will go read and understand how to use and set that up.

noylj does highlight an important point about the issue with the 8-times-fired LC brass that is causing the problem—that the issue occurs just after the case contacts the die. I can tell right away that something is not right.

One more data point and a thought. 1. Data Point - I have the same issue with that brass and only that brass on the Dillon. It is much easier to get a stuck case out of a Dillon die as it is engineered to facilitate easy extractions. That said until yesterday I never used that feature. 2. Thought - My goal is to be able to find a good .308 load that exhibits good accuracy, less than 1 MOA, with a powder that meters well, like Varget, and be able to crank out hundreds at a time on the Dillon. I have been using the single stage press as I search for that load as it is much easier to precisely control powder and seating depth on the single stage press.


My first thought is: You think Varget meters WELL?!?!?! I'd hate to see what you think meters poorly!


As for your repeated remarks about the number of times the brass has been fired:

I literally have 5-gallon buckets full of LC brass. I don't think any of it has been fired more than 2 or 3 times I have so much of it.

That said, I do have bolt gun brass that has been fired 10+ times. I have zero issues with that brass and Imperial. It may be worth noting that I do anneal my bolt gun brass every firing. My bolt gun reloading process is essentially the same as Nikons, but with less trimming, and a regular bushing die (not SB). I do also, however, run my brass over a mandrel prior to annealing, every time, since I shoot field matches and case mouths get dinged up pretty bad when people step on them (recovering all your brass immediately after shooting is often not possible, and you must wait until the entire squad has finished).


You also don't mention how you tumble your brass. If you use a stainless tumbler, it will increase the amount of effort required to size. If you recently changed to stainless tumbling, there's your answer.




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15652 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If my brass wash ejected and hit rocks or got stepped on, I would use the mandrel to fix it before processing also. As it is, my match brass never touches the ground, I don't even have an ejector in the rifle.

As for not lubing the neck and shoulder; I've never heard of that in the 35 years I've been loading. I do know not to put too much lube in those places (or anywhere else lest you create a dimple in the case when sizing; however using Imperial Wax, the coating that goes on is minimal. I use my fingers to lather the brass and essentially I touch the wax with my index finger and then rub the case between my thumb, index and middle finger, for a few seconds, then I resize the case. I will do two more cases that way before touching the Imperial Wax in the tin again. I use that little.

Also the trimming every loading is more of a clean-up of the mouth than anything else; so very little come off. It's now the fastest operation in my loading regimen; it's even faster than priming the brass with my handheld RCBS primer.
 
Posts: 2603 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by NikonUser:
If my brass wash ejected and hit rocks or got stepped on, I would use the mandrel to fix it before processing also. As it is, my match brass never touches the ground, I don't even have an ejector in the rifle.

As for not lubing the neck and shoulder; I've never heard of that in the 35 years I've been loading. I do know not to put too much lube in those places (or anywhere else lest you create a dimple in the case when sizing; however using Imperial Wax, the coating that goes on is minimal. I use my fingers to lather the brass and essentially I touch the wax with my index finger and then rub the case between my thumb, index and middle finger, for a few seconds, then I resize the case. I will do two more cases that way before touching the Imperial Wax in the tin again. I use that little.

Also the trimming every loading is more of a clean-up of the mouth than anything else; so very little come off. It's now the fastest operation in my loading regimen; it's even faster than priming the brass with my handheld RCBS primer.


Yeah, but you have one of those fancy bench-mounted Girauds. If I had one of those, I'd trim every time too. It's easy enough at that point. And since I do have to chamfer every time due to stainless tumbling, I'd just as soon hit them on the Giraud. Easier and more consistent than my Lyman case prep station.

As for Imperial application, I put a small glob in my palm and rub my hands together. Then I grab handfuls of brass, usually 8-10 at a time (depending on cartridge - more for .223AI, fewer for x47 or similar diameter), roll them back and forth between my hands, then hold onto them all with my left hand. I usually get 2-3 handfuls out of one application to my palm.

My left hand feeds them into the press, the right hand pulls the handle and then removes them. As I'm putting the sized one into a container with my right hand, the left puts another one in there so I can just pull the handle again. It's very quick this way, for me at least. The CoAx makes it even easier since I don't have to worry about sliding the brass into a shellholder (I'm not ambidextrous, and trying to do that with my left hand while doing something else with my right likely would not work out well, if at all).




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15652 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I see that you take your chances when you come to this forum! In my equipment IMR 4064 does not meter at all. Waste of time to even try. I have to use the beam scale or the RCBS Chargemaster for that powder that does give me great results. I can get relatively consistent (my definition, not necessarily yours) loads with Varget (+/- .2 grains) using the large Dillon charge bar and half or better than that using the smaller charge bar. I have found Reloader 15 to meter better than Varget but I have a lot more Varget than anything else.

I am not playing the same game you two are and even if I wanted to be I have a job and more than a few children still in elementary/middle/high school.

It is my experience that you accumulate the gear and knowledge to support the mission. Until recently, as I have started shooting past 500 yards--though just for fun--I realize that I need more accuracy to accomplish what I am now trying to do.

The case sticking problem is isolated to the LC brass only that I have been reusing.

Much easier to throw it away and start with some better brass. Probably a waste of time to understand what is the actual issue with something that is telling me it is time to discard it.

Thanks for the input. I learned a lot.

Henryrifle
 
Posts: 430 | Location: Atlanta | Registered: November 11, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by henryrifle:
I see that you take your chances when you come to this forum! In my equipment IMR 4064 does not meter at all. Waste of time to even try. I have to use the beam scale or the RCBS Chargemaster for that powder that does give me great results. I can get relatively consistent (my definition, not necessarily yours) loads with Varget (+/- .2 grains) using the large Dillon charge bar and half or better than that using the smaller charge bar. I have found Reloader 15 to meter better than Varget but I have a lot more Varget than anything else.

I am not playing the same game you two are and even if I wanted to be I have a job and more than a few children still in elementary/middle/high school.

It is my experience that you accumulate the gear and knowledge to support the mission. Until recently, as I have started shooting past 500 yards--though just for fun--I realize that I need more accuracy to accomplish what I am now trying to do.

The case sticking problem is isolated to the LC brass only that I have been reusing.

Much easier to throw it away and start with some better brass. Probably a waste of time to understand what is the actual issue with something that is telling me it is time to discard it.

Thanks for the input. I learned a lot.

Henryrifle


Even at 500 yards, +/-.2gn is going to show up on paper as vertical stringing.

I suppose it depends on what degree of accuracy you're looking for.

Depending on what type of rifle you're loading for, you might think about picking up some Lapua brass. It really is worth the $.




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15652 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah, +/- .2 grain means that you can have as much as .4 grain from one cartridge to the next; that would terrify me and I would have no confidence in my ammo. And let me tell you that in competition, if you don't trust your equipment, you're toast.

I load at the .02 grain, the kernel of Varget and I have utter and complete confidence in my equipment. I know that everything that shows up on target is my fault, one way or the other. When I clean a target, it's me; when I have a train wreck for a string, it's me. That helps me a lot.

BTW I love 4064, it's a great powder and I use it, but not for F-class competition because it's not an extreme powder; it is affected by temperature. I only use Varget for my competition loads. I buy it in lots of 20 or 32 pounds. For all other .308/.223 loads, I use 4064.

exx1976, yes, the Giraud stand-alone is a great unit. Last Sunday afternoon I annealed 300 cases using my Giraud annealer. And then this weekend, I sized, cleaned and then Giraued 200 of those rounds in between doing a whole bunch of honeydos and stuff. I takes me 1/2 hour to size 100 rounds and dump them in the Lyman. I let it run for 2.5 hours and then it take me about 10 minutes to pull out the brass and make sure the primer holes are clear. Then 5 minutes to Giraud the brass. It takes about 8-10 minutes to prime the brass with my RCBS hand tools.

As I said, the fastest operation is now trim, chamfer and deburr, AKA Giraud the brass.

You need to call Doug at some point.
 
Posts: 2603 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by NikonUser:
Yeah, +/- .2 grain means that you can have as much as .4 grain from one cartridge to the next; that would terrify me and I would have no confidence in my ammo. And let me tell you that in competition, if you don't trust your equipment, you're toast.

I load at the .02 grain, the kernel of Varget and I have utter and complete confidence in my equipment. I know that everything that shows up on target is my fault, one way or the other. When I clean a target, it's me; when I have a train wreck for a string, it's me. That helps me a lot.

BTW I love 4064, it's a great powder and I use it, but not for F-class competition because it's not an extreme powder; it is affected by temperature. I only use Varget for my competition loads. I buy it in lots of 20 or 32 pounds. For all other .308/.223 loads, I use 4064.

exx1976, yes, the Giraud stand-alone is a great unit. Last Sunday afternoon I annealed 300 cases using my Giraud annealer. And then this weekend, I sized, cleaned and then Giraued 200 of those rounds in between doing a whole bunch of honeydos and stuff. I takes me 1/2 hour to size 100 rounds and dump them in the Lyman. I let it run for 2.5 hours and then it take me about 10 minutes to pull out the brass and make sure the primer holes are clear. Then 5 minutes to Giraud the brass. It takes about 8-10 minutes to prime the brass with my RCBS hand tools.

As I said, the fastest operation is now trim, chamfer and deburr, AKA Giraud the brass.

You need to call Doug at some point.


I know, I know...

I'm just so heavily invested in the other, lesser tools that I have that it would take me a while to sell them off. I can't afford to reinvest without moving that stuff, and yet at the same time, can't afford to be without tools. The catch-22 of having barely enough money to play in this sport. Frown




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15652 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Guessing your lube technique?

What works for me. 25 cases on the board, spray with Hornady One Shot, flip board around spray other side. Holding spray at a angle to get inside the necks. Wait a few minutes.... Many thousands, never had a stuck case. Made the boards out of some scrap plywood, Sinclair sells them.


 
Posts: 2318 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Over the decades that I have been handloading, I have read or heard about all manners of getting a stuck case. I participate or have participated in many gun boards since they started and have seen posts about stuck cases using every lube product on the market. Except for one, Imperial Wax. I can't say that I have heard about or read about a stuck case where someone was using IW. Ever.

The most common one for the stuck case post has been One-Shot. Just for grins, I did a Bing search and sure enough it comes up really quick. Some people swear by it, others swear at it. There are just too many people swearing at it and the people defending it say things like "you don't know how to use it" or "you didn't shake the can properly," or "you didn't aim it right." Really?

I like your board idea offgrid, but it's yet another gadget and another step in reloading. Plus that spray is expensive @ $10/can/ I don't know how log it lasts but I get about 10 to 15 thousand cases lubed with a $7 can of Imperial Wax (and probably more). I just pull the cases from the ammo box, IWax it, size it and drop it in the Lyman mashing machine. No fuss, no spray, no extra board and it's faster.
 
Posts: 2603 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Many moons back, I used to swage bullets (as in Lead wire, guiding jackets all into a die) on a Corbin press and the only lube used was a lanolin base goo that I think I may still have a bottle left. However, these days Imperial does a better job at a better cost-per-case.

You don't get more die pressure than forming a 7mm FMJ 154gr rebated boat tail bullet (or chance for sticking).
 
Posts: 175 | Location: NW NJ | Registered: December 07, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by NikonUser:
Over the decades that I have been handloading, I have read or heard about all manners of getting a stuck case. I participate or have participated in many gun boards since they started and have seen posts about stuck cases using every lube product on the market. Except for one, Imperial Wax. I can't say that I have heard about or read about a stuck case where someone was using IW. Ever.

The most common one for the stuck case post has been One-Shot. Just for grins, I did a Bing search and sure enough it comes up really quick. Some people swear by it, others swear at it. There are just too many people swearing at it and the people defending it say things like "you don't know how to use it" or "you didn't shake the can properly," or "you didn't aim it right." Really?

I like your board idea offgrid, but it's yet another gadget and another step in reloading. Plus that spray is expensive @ $10/can/ I don't know how log it lasts but I get about 10 to 15 thousand cases lubed with a $7 can of Imperial Wax (and probably more). I just pull the cases from the ammo box, IWax it, size it and drop it in the Lyman mashing machine. No fuss, no spray, no extra board and it's faster.


You've hit the proverbial nail on the head there, Nikon. OS *appears* to work - if you read and follow the directions. Spray it on JUST SO, allow it to dry, yata yata. The problem is most people can't even follow directions to set their dies up properly these days, let alone be bothered to read the directions on a rattle can. "Oh, it's a rattle can. I know how to work these!"

It's lube. It needn't be so complicated.

The reason no one EVER sticks a case with IW is that it's impossible to fuck up - you put it on the brass, and you put the brass into the die. No "did you shake the can" "did you hold it at the right angle" "did you hold it close enough/too far away" "did you wait for it to dry", none of that shit.

Oh, and since it's an aerosol, it doesn't require special shipping.

And then, yes, there's the simple matter of cost.




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15652 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Split rifle necks/mouth is almost always a work hardening issue. This is hastened by NOT lubing the inside of the neck during sizing. Yes the neck will thicken some, yes the neck will become brittle some. Cases don't last forever w/o extra attention.
Annealing for FL sized works. Neck sizing also extends the life of the case, but often not a good choice for semiauto.


IF YOU AREN'T HANDLOADING, YOU AREN'T SHOOTING ENOUGH!
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Posts: 7636 | Location: ca, usa | Registered: February 17, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I shoot lots of junk brass through semi's and bolts. Went to a Small base die for peace of mind (need to have for a pump rifle), lube to avoid any resistance (case body or inside neck) when pulling the handle. ALL unknown 'range pickups' are deprimed with a Universal de-capper. ALL are annealed as needed. Annealing process can be done on the cheap with drill, socket and 'benz-o-matic' or with a more deluxe setup. Of course the pan of water method does work if you are so inclined!


--------------------------------

On the inside looking out, but not to the west, it's the PRK and its minions!
 
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