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Resizing advice needed over here! Login/Join 
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Picture of jbcummings
posted
I'm scratching my head right now trying to figure out what I'm doing wrong. Here's the problem.

I try to resize .308 brass and my headspace is growing! I start out with a headspace measured with the Hornaday Comparator of 1.6220 after resize it measures 1.6280.

I've got a new Redding Type S FL Bushing die on a Dillon 550B press. My factory loaded rounds are measuring .3360 so I'm using a .334 bushing (.002 tension).

The bushing is installed in the die without the expander ball. I dropped the bushing in letter side down and left enough slack so I could just hear the bushing rattle around. I screwed the new die in until it touched the raised shell holder, then backed it off one full turn. I then greased up a case with Hornaday One Shot case lube and cycled it through the sizing die.

Below you can see a crappy cell phone pic of the results. The case on the left is a case that hasn't been touched. The one on the right is my sized case. It looks, and feels, like the one on the right has been pushed up into the bushing so that about half the neck was resized and there is a slight bulge just below where the bushing stopped. The down stroke is not overly hard and the upstroke is not hard, but it isn't as easy as I would have expected. I'm making an assumption here, that while pulling the case out of the bushing, I'm stretching the case from the body to the neck and pulling the datum away from the base of the case. Thus growing the headspace measurement on the case.

The bushing seems to be doing what's expected. I'm getting a measurement of .3335 on the sized case.

So what am I doing wrong? Should the bushing press down that far on the neck?



________________
"Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem".
(Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know to be superior in battle.)
-- Flavius Vegetius Renatus,
 
Posts: 2934 | Location: N. Texas | Registered: May 21, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ok. I don't know about setting up the die by having it hit the shellholder and then unscrewing it. The big problem is that the die is usually expected to make contact with the shellholder at the top of the stroke. If you remove 1 full rotation, that is the equivalent of .07 inches because the pitch on these dies is 14TPI (7/8X14.) So, my thinking is that you're not touching the shoulder at all and the body gets squeezed by the die so the shoulder goes up.

I have never used Hornady One Shot, but I have read a lot of stories about stuck cases that start with "I use One Shot".

The way I do it is to put in a fired case, which I measured with a comparator and lathered with Imperial Wax and then running it through the sizing die and measuring the case again. I'm looking at pushing back the shoulder to about .001 to .002 under the fired case. If I don't have enough, I screw down the sizing die some more until I get what I want.

I will say that with Imperial Was, the case comes right out of the sizing die with no resistance whatsoever. I do several cases to make sure I have the proper setting and then I never move it for that batch of cases.

You might also look at using the competition shellholder kit from Redding to help you. Read the instructions and make sure you understand what they are saying. I have 2 sets of those (.308 and .223.) I do not use the one in .308 because my die works well in my T-7 with the regular Re3dding shellholder.
 
Posts: 2398 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alea iacta est
Picture of exx1976
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Why would you unscrew the die? Typical die setup starts with screw to the shell holder, then DOWN another 1/4 turn and adjust as necessary from there.

Easy solution. Screw the die in.

Also, you shouldn't really hear the bushing slap around. Typical configuration is to screw it all the way tight, then back it off about 1/16th of a turn. Mine usually have oil/lube in them so they don't really rattle freely.




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15443 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of jbcummings
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Didn't say so originally, but this is the small base die.

My reasoning for unscrewing the die was to keep from over bumping the shoulder. Since I've got a Dillon progressive, I wasn't sure that the Redding shell holder kit would fit the press since it's a progressive. Dillon has that funny looking rotating wheel thingy. I'm not sure if the Redding kit would fit it. If I were running a single stage press with a standard slot for a shellholder, I'd have gone with the Redding kit.

Sounds like from what NikonUser has said it might be as much the fault of the lube I'm using as anything. I bought the titanium bushings to avoid any sticking issues and I had no problems with the Hornaday wax with the old Dillon steel dies, but those didn't have bushings. They only reason I was trying the Redding dies was I didn't like the way I had to taper crimp the necks with the Dillon dies. Just trying to gain control over the neck tension.

So answer me this then. How far down the neck should the bushing go? Looks like it's getting about half way down the neck. Is that sufficient or should I be getting all the way down?


________________
"Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem".
(Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know to be superior in battle.)
-- Flavius Vegetius Renatus,
 
Posts: 2934 | Location: N. Texas | Registered: May 21, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alea iacta est
Picture of exx1976
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I use Redding bushing dies for all my bolt gun cartridges. I don't know as I've ever measured how far down the neck they go, but I do know they don't go ALL the way down.




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15443 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of jbcummings
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OK, thanks. Apprarently that has nothing to do with my issue. I'll try something simple like the lube I'm using.


________________
"Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem".
(Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know to be superior in battle.)
-- Flavius Vegetius Renatus,
 
Posts: 2934 | Location: N. Texas | Registered: May 21, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alea iacta est
Picture of exx1976
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You should change your lube, yes, but that's not going to solve your incorrect use of a sizing die.

Screw it down.




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15443 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jbcummings:
Didn't say so originally, but this is the small base die.

My reasoning for unscrewing the die was to keep from over bumping the shoulder. Since I've got a Dillon progressive, I wasn't sure that the Redding shell holder kit would fit the press since it's a progressive. Dillon has that funny looking rotating wheel thingy. I'm not sure if the Redding kit would fit it. If I were running a single stage press with a standard slot for a shellholder, I'd have gone with the Redding kit.

Sounds like from what NikonUser has said it might be as much the fault of the lube I'm using as anything. I bought the titanium bushings to avoid any sticking issues and I had no problems with the Hornaday wax with the old Dillon steel dies, but those didn't have bushings. They only reason I was trying the Redding dies was I didn't like the way I had to taper crimp the necks with the Dillon dies. Just trying to gain control over the neck tension.

So answer me this then. How far down the neck should the bushing go? Looks like it's getting about half way down the neck. Is that sufficient or should I be getting all the way down?


I use a small base die also. And the fact you use an SB die really exacerbates the problem of growing brass if your die is set incorrectly. The SB die squeezes the case even more at the bottom, causing it to grow longer than a regular die, IF you do not have the shoulder set correctly on your die. In your case, you do not, It is at least .07 inch off. The fact that your case grows .006 inch when you resize it is simply because you moved metal from the bottom up and there is nothing to stop the growth. The necks of my brass are almost completely resized in my die, a lot more than yours is in the picture.

I would urge you to screw the die down to the shellholder and resize a couple of cases and see what you get. Changing the lube will not make much difference, but it will be easier to size with Imperial Wax.
 
Posts: 2398 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of jbcummings
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Hadn't though about in those terms. Thanks Nikon, I'll give that a try.


________________
"Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem".
(Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know to be superior in battle.)
-- Flavius Vegetius Renatus,
 
Posts: 2934 | Location: N. Texas | Registered: May 21, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of sigcrazy7
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Lube is not your problem, but this looks like a good place to say this...

I have a stuck case extractor, and I have used it exactly twice in 25 years. Once 25 years ago when I was using One Shot (that's why I bought it). Once again a few months ago when my newbie friend was using my equipment and started without me, and he was using One Shot.

My reloading cave has tins of Imperial everywhere because when I first bought it I didn't realize that one tin would last until the rapture. Smile



[i]
 
Posts: 4688 | Location: Utah | Registered: December 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of jbcummings
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Thanks, guys. Looks like I'm getting better results thanks to your input. I screwed the die all the way down and tightened up on the bushing. I was liberal with the lube and the first fire formed case started at 1.6220 and resized to 1.6215. Not quite as much bump as I had planned, but at least it's not growing.

I'm thinking about getting the Redding shellholder kit and see if I can get better control of the bump. That Dillon setup might be flexing a bit. The shellholder on a Dillon is a rotating fingered wheel that rides above the solid base of the rising piston. So, I'm wondering if I screw down against it (this fingered wheel), then does it flex when I actually use the press for work. Does that seem likely? If you're not familiar with the Dillon presses that might all sound screwy. Smile. I'm betting this all would be much easier on a T-7.


________________
"Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem".
(Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know to be superior in battle.)
-- Flavius Vegetius Renatus,
 
Posts: 2934 | Location: N. Texas | Registered: May 21, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alea iacta est
Picture of exx1976
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quote:
Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
My reloading cave has tins of Imperial everywhere because when I first bought it I didn't realize that one tin would last until the rapture. Smile


You need to shoot more. I've only been loading about 4 years, and I'm on my third tin... Big Grin




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15443 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alea iacta est
Picture of exx1976
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jbcummings:
Thanks, guys. Looks like I'm getting better results thanks to your input. I screwed the die all the way down and tightened up on the bushing. I was liberal with the lube and the first fire formed case started at 1.6220 and resized to 1.6215. Not quite as much bump as I had planned, but at least it's not growing.

I'm thinking about getting the Redding shellholder kit and see if I can get better control of the bump. That Dillon setup might be flexing a bit. The shellholder on a Dillon is a rotating fingered wheel that rides above the solid base of the rising piston. So, I'm wondering if I screw down against it (this fingered wheel), then does it flex when I actually use the press for work. Does that seem likely? If you're not familiar with the Dillon presses that might all sound screwy. Smile. I'm betting this all would be much easier on a T-7.


Familiar? Quite.




For the love of God, screw the die down more, will ya?




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15443 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of sigcrazy7
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quote:
Originally posted by exx1976:
quote:
Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
My reloading cave has tins of Imperial everywhere because when I first bought it I didn't realize that one tin would last until the rapture. Smile


You need to shoot more. I've only been loading about 4 years, and I'm on my third tin... Big Grin


No doubt. Last Sat my buddy and I tried to go up on BLM land to shoot some rifles. We both sunk our pickups up to the differentials, and had to get pulled out. We're talking mud like quicksand. We spent the whole evening getting unstuck, and didn't even shoot. Got some 4-wheeling in, though. I'm really low volume. I'll typically spend hours loading 20 rounds of big boomers.

To the OP. I can't say I've ever used a Dillon, but I do own a T-7, and I do use the Redding competition shell holders. They do make it much faster to get the shoulder bump where you want. Start with the .010, measure. Switch to the .008, measure, and so on until it is where you want it. They're expensive, but after you use them a few times, you'll love them.



[i]
 
Posts: 4688 | Location: Utah | Registered: December 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of jbcummings
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Exx1976, do you use the Redding shellholder kit?..or are you just using the Dillon wheel/shellholder?


________________
"Qui desiderat pacem, bellum praeparat; nemo provocare ne offendere audet quem intelliget superiorem esse pugnaturem".
(Whosoever desires peace prepares for war; no one provokes, nor dares to offend, those who they know to be superior in battle.)
-- Flavius Vegetius Renatus,
 
Posts: 2934 | Location: N. Texas | Registered: May 21, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Blue68f100
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I find it's easier and more flexable to buy a set of 7/8" shim sets, and cheaper ($10). Then start with a 0.010" shim under the die and your set. This way you can go in or out as needed without touching the lock ring.


David

P229R 9mm, Nitron, Beavertail Frame, Night Sights, DA/SA, SRT & Short Reach Trigger
 
Posts: 3384 | Location: Piney Woods of East Texas | Registered: November 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I like this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 
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