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Newbie making first loads - please check my numbers Login/Join 
Only dead fish
go with the flow
Picture of pessimist
posted
I’m getting ready to make my first loads in both 9mm and 38 Special. I just wanted to run this by some experienced people to make sure I’m OK. I used Lyman 49th Ed Reloading Handbook to come up with these numbers. I tried to match the bullets and OAL the best I could.

9mm
Berry’s plated 124gr Flat Nose (.356)
Win 231
3.2 grains
OAL 1.11

38 Special
Berry’s plated 158gr Flat Nose (.357) – I’ll be using a tapered crimp for these
Win 231
3.8 grains
OAL 1.45

First of all and most importantly, is the above safe? When dealing with different bullets not covered in the manual, how do you determine the correct OAL? I understand that bullet seating depth can impact pressure so I want to be clear on that and OAL.

Thanks.
 
Posts: 1183 | Registered: March 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Plowing straight ahead come what may
Picture of Bisleyblackhawk
posted Hide Post
I have just always used cast bullet data from manuals (both hard cover and online from the powder manufacture)...just a quick look at the data from my Speer manual...

9MM 125 cast with 231...starting load 3.8gr.
Max load 4.1gr.
COL 1.130"
Looks like your are GTG, if not a little light, it's been a long time since I loaded 9MM but I remember that starting loads didn't provide enough slide velocity for them to work in my Ruger P95...I've had the same experience with starting loads with Berry's bullets with .40 in my Glocks...
Keep this in mind...load a few and work up to make sure they have enough OOMPH to work...
A little more loading data on 9MM with 231 here...

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol


On .38 Special you also look OK...from the same Speer manual...

.38 Special 158gr. Cast with 231(all bullet profiles)...Starting load 4.0gr.
Max load 4.4 gr.
OAL 1.440" L-SWC
1.455" L-LHP
1.510" L-RN

Just take your time and watch out for double charging....a .38 Special case can easily hold a double charge and with some denser powders will not be as apparent as with bulkier powders that take up a lot of space and fill the case to a higher level...

From Berry's website on loading data for plated bullets...

https://www.berrysmfg.com/faq#FAQ5

Please consult load data books or your powder manufacturers' website for load information. You can use any published data as long as it is the same weight (FMJ, Lead, Plated, etc.)

-Standard Plate Bullets max velocity- 1,250 fps.

-Thick Plate Bullets (TP) max velocity- 1,500 fps.

For SAAMI MAX COL specs or OAL of the bullet please click HERE.

We recommend a light crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet, your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target.

Here are websites with load data information,

https://www.hodgdon.com/basic-manual-inquiry.html

http://www.accuratepowder.com/...LoadSpec_1-23-14.pdf

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/default.aspx


********************************************************

"we've gotta roll with the punches, learn to play all of our hunches
Making the best of what ever comes our way
Forget that blind ambition and learn to trust your intuition
Plowing straight ahead come what may
And theres a cowboy in the jungle"
Jimmy Buffet
 
Posts: 8007 | Location: Southeast Tennessee...not far above my homestate Georgia | Registered: March 10, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by pessimist:
I’m getting ready to make my first loads in both 9mm and 38 Special. I just wanted to run this by some experienced people to make sure I’m OK. I used Lyman 49th Ed Reloading Handbook to come up with these numbers. I tried to match the bullets and OAL the best I could.

9mm
Berry’s plated 124gr Flat Nose (.356)
Win 231
3.2 grains
OAL 1.11

38 Special
Berry’s plated 158gr Flat Nose (.357) – I’ll be using a tapered crimp for these
Win 231
3.8 grains
OAL 1.45

First of all and most importantly, is the above safe? When dealing with different bullets not covered in the manual, how do you determine the correct OAL? I understand that bullet seating depth can impact pressure so I want to be clear on that and OAL.

Thanks.


The 9mm load sounds very light to me. I've been using 4.6 with jacketed for about 1060 fps out of my Creed and CZ 75. I have a bunch of plated loads assembled but haven't had a chance to get them over the chrono.

4.1 231 with a plated 124 bullet gave me 950 average out of the CZ. A mousefart load for sure. It cycled and functioned.
 
Posts: 811 | Location: hampton roads, va. | Registered: October 03, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of sigcrazy7
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Why are you using a taper crimp on 38 special? You typically should roll crimp a revolver cartridge since it headspaces on the rim, not the case mouth. A strong crimp on a revolver cartridge is usually recommended.

ETA:
I just went and looked at those bullets. No crimp grove, so maybe that’s the reason for taper crimping? Watch for bullet setback while you’re shooting those. Shoot five, then remove the sixth and measure the OAL.



[i]
 
Posts: 5310 | Location: Utah | Registered: December 18, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Only dead fish
go with the flow
Picture of pessimist
posted Hide Post
Thanks, guys.

It’s interesting that the loads look light. The bullet I approximated from in 9mm indicates 120gr #2 Alloy. The starting grain for that bullet is 2.9 (4.4 max). The bullet I approximated from in 38 Special is 158gr Linotype and the starting grains is 3.6 (4.0 max).

I guess I should just load a few and see how the work at the range. What a pain in the ass this is! I wish the bullet manufacturers would provide some loads with the specific bullets you’re buying. That would eliminate some of the guess work.

I think I’ll up the 9mm to 3.8, same as the 38 Special.

quote:
Originally posted by Bisleyblackhawk:
We recommend a light crimp on the bullet, just enough to put pressure against the bullet without denting or deforming the plating. If you were to pull the bullet out of a case with the proper crimp you would find no more than a scratch on the surface of the plating. If you are denting or deforming the bullet, your accuracy will suffer and the bullet may start to tumble before it hits the target.


This explains a problem I just sorted out with Georgia-Arms canned heat in 357 Sig. I couldn’t put a good group together to save my life. They were going all over the place and I thought I saw a couple of keyholes. I pulled one of the bullets and they’re crimped excessively with a very slight mushroom shape.

quote:
Originally posted by sigcrazy7:
Why are you using a taper crimp on 38 special? You typically should roll crimp a revolver cartridge since it headspaces on the rim, not the case mouth. A strong crimp on a revolver cartridge is usually recommended.

ETA:
I just went and looked at those bullets. No crimp grove, so maybe that’s the reason for taper crimping? Watch for bullet setback while you’re shooting those. Shoot five, then remove the sixth and measure the OAL.


I just bought a set of dies for 38 Special with the roll crimp included. I purchased the taper crimp separate so I could shoot the Berry plated bullets. I figured they would be comparable to the 9mm so I wasn’t thinking about setback. I haven’t ordered the bullets yet so if you think it’s not a good combination, maybe I should think about a different bullet. Just didn’t want to deal with leading.

ETA: I'll be shooting the 38 Special in a 357 Magnum
 
Posts: 1183 | Registered: March 25, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Plowing straight ahead come what may
Picture of Bisleyblackhawk
posted Hide Post
I have been using Hy-Tek coated bullets from Summers Enterprises in both .38/.357 (130 grain) and .45 Colt (200 grain) and have been very satisfied with his product...coating eliminates leading issues and much less smoke than my own cast bullets...he will ship 4 boxes for flat rate...I generally receive them 4-5 days after ordering...you might want to check him out...

http://www.summersenterprisesl...m/category-s/111.htm

http://www.summersenterprisesl...m/category-s/110.htm

As far as the lack of a crimping groove on the plated...I've never had any "setback" on the 125 grain Berry's bullets in .38/.357 with a light roll crimp (not enough to cut into the plating)...I check by placing the bullet nose in a resized empty and unprimed case with the bullet seated to the OAL, against my bench and push against the case with my thumb. With an uncrimped case it still takes a little effort (more than you would think) to push the bullet deeper into the case. But with a light roll crimp, it takes a lot of pressure to push it deeper (if at all)...if it does move, add a little more crimp (not enough to cut into the plating which you can see if you pull the bullet)...but truthfully, a heavy roll crimp, enough to cut the plating will be pretty obvious to the eye...

Once you have the crimp where you want it...tighten your die down and double check the OAL (when you screw your die in to set the crimp you may have to back out your bullet seating stem a little to adjust the OAL back to where you want it...

As with all things...your mileage may vary depending on the tolerances of your dies, cases you are using and their OAL and even (in rare occasions) the case lot for the bullet you are using.

90% of my reloading is toward the middle of the loading data with revolver and pistol cartridge lever action rifles with plain lead cast or the coated bullets...I use a heavy crimp to get a cleaner burn with the Hodgdon Clays I use...with the Hy-Tek bullets you don't have to worry about damaging the plating with a heavy roll crimp and your cartridge OAL is pretty much set by the crimp groove cast into the bullet (some cowboy action shooters load to an OAL to function in their rifles...not because of pressure)

.38 Special is a fairly forgiving cartridge to load for when using lower or middle reloading data.


********************************************************

"we've gotta roll with the punches, learn to play all of our hunches
Making the best of what ever comes our way
Forget that blind ambition and learn to trust your intuition
Plowing straight ahead come what may
And theres a cowboy in the jungle"
Jimmy Buffet
 
Posts: 8007 | Location: Southeast Tennessee...not far above my homestate Georgia | Registered: March 10, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of sourdough44
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Yes, try some in your semi auto to be sure they cycle ok, before you load a bunch.
 
Posts: 3297 | Location: WI | Registered: February 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The Lyman manual is often referred to as "the lead manual" due to its large amount of load data for lead and cast bullets.

I'd look into a Lee manual if you don't have one. There is a bunch of data that is for copper plated bullets as well as jacketed in it. There's also the big Sierra manual at twice the price roughly.
 
Posts: 811 | Location: hampton roads, va. | Registered: October 03, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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