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45 (Long) Colt Dies? (was: Roll Crimp or Taper Crimp?) Login/Join 
Nullus Anxietas
Picture of ensigmatic
posted
Doing my research and have run into a confusing point, re: When to use a roll crimp vs. when to use a taper crimp.

Sometimes I've read that if the bullet has a cannelure (jacketed) or crimp groove (lead): Use a roll crimp, otherwise a taper crimp.

Other times I've read that if the round indexes on the case mouth (e.g.: Semi-autos): Use a taper crimp, for rimmed (i.e.: Revolver) cartridges: A roll crimp.

Since, it seems, most (?) semi-auto bullets don't have a cannelure or grove and most revolver bullets do: They mean the same thing.

Except there are bullets like Berrys 250 gr. .45LC flat-nose plated bullets I bought:



Note: No cannelure (or groove), despite being a "revolver bullet."

So I believe I want a taper crimp on these?

To further-complicate the subject: Redding makes two crimp dies for .45 Colt: Taper crimp and "Profile" crimp. Took a while to verify it, but it turns out "Profile" = "Roll"

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ensigmatic,




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
 
Posts: 11194 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of SlimMan
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You should have a clear explanation in your reloading manuals, but in brief:
Auto pistol=taper crimp
Revolver=roll crimp
The bullet in your picture still needs a roll crimp, but just don't crimp so much that you cut through the plating. As to why Redding makes both options, I have no idea; you'd have to ask their CS people.
 
Posts: 246 | Location: Parrish FL | Registered: March 03, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by SlimMan:
You should have a clear explanation in your reloading manuals, but in brief:
Auto pistol=taper crimp
Revolver=roll crimp
The bullet in your picture still needs a roll crimp, but just don't crimp so much that you cut through the plating. As to why Redding makes both options, I have no idea; you'd have to ask their CS people.

Thanks for the follow-up!

This gentleman disagrees with you:

quote:

All jacketed bullets intended for revolver loads have a cannelure where a roll crimp is applied. Likewise, all lead bullets intended for revolver loads have a crimp groove .... again where a roll crimp is applied. Pistol bullets, such as those intended for a 45 ACP, 9mm, or 40 S&W do not have a cannelure or crimp groove and are designed for a taper crimp. Additionally, most plated bullets do not have a crimp groove or a cannelure so they must be taper crimped too.
(Emphasis mine)

Ref: Lee 45 Colt Dies, post #18

I've seen the same asserted elsewhere. Thus my bringing it up for discussion.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
 
Posts: 11194 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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If you roll crimp with no crimp groove or cannelure, you are likely to cut the plating. Accuracy will suffer. You can get away with a little roll crimp, but it won't hold the bullet in place at anything but low vel, especially with heavy bullets. For this reason, have always thought plated a poor choice for most revolver loads.


IF YOU AREN'T HANDLOADING, YOU AREN'T SHOOTING ENOUGH!
NRA Instruc: Basic Pistol & Met Reloading
 
Posts: 7635 | Location: ca, usa | Registered: February 17, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The only purpose of the taper crimp is to remove the "belling" of the case mouth. Pistol cases depend on case tension to hold the bullet in place. Excess taper crimp can cause the case to buckle slightly which reduces the tension on the bullet.
Roll crimp is needed to prevent the bullet from "walking out" when fired in a revolver. The roll crimp also helps build up pressures needed to insure heavy loads of slower burning powders ignite completely. (example:H110 in 44 mag and larger)
 
Posts: 777 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: January 02, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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A number of Xtreme plated bullets used in revolvers are now coming with a cannalure from the manufacturer. I use a mild roll crimp on these, and have had no problems to date.
 
Posts: 3565 | Location: Az | Registered: May 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by fredj338:
If you roll crimp with no crimp groove or cannelure, you are likely to cut the plating. Accuracy will suffer. You can get away with a little roll crimp, but it won't hold the bullet in place at anything but low vel, especially with heavy bullets. For this reason, have always thought plated a poor choice for most revolver loads.

But wouldn't the same problem, recoil-induced bullet creep, occur with heavy auto rounds, as well?

My understanding is that taper crimp is used because auto-loaders they typically head-space on the case mouth.

I may have found the solution. Somebody from Berry's (the owner?) on another forum suggested the Dillon Accu-Crimp is the way to go with plated bullets lacking a cannelure. Apparently it starts with a mild taper crimp and transitions to a roll crimp with increase force.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
 
Posts: 11194 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I reload 9mm, 10mm, and .45. I have used the Lee Factory Crimp die for many years. It does two things. It has a carbide ring to do a final sizing of the completed bullet, and a taper crimp that Lee claims cannot over crimp.
 
Lately, though, I have come to prefer a combination of Redding dies, the dual ring carbide sizing die for .45, otherwise the titanium carbide sizer for 9mm & 10mm. Paired with the micrometer adjustable taper crimp die. I use the Dillon dies for powder charging, powder check, and bullet seating.
 
 
Posts: 6774 | Location: South Congress AZ | Registered: May 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by henryaz:
 
I reload 9mm, 10mm, and .45...
 
Lately, though, I have come to prefer a combination of Redding dies, the dual ring carbide sizing die for .45, otherwise the titanium carbide sizer for 9mm & 10mm. Paired with the micrometer adjustable taper crimp die. I use the Dillon dies for powder charging, powder check, and bullet seating.
 

I was going to start a separate thread about this, but, I'll just re-title this one.

Here's my thinking right now: Redding Dual-Ring Carbide Sizing Die Set for full-length sizing (and de-capping), Expander (it's alleged to be easier on the brass than ball expanders) and Seater, then the Dillon Accu-Crimp. The Dillon AC should work for both that plated Berry's stuff and for jacketed. If it ends up it doesn't crimp jacketed hard enough, perhaps the Lee you've been using.

I don't plan to use lead bullets.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
 
Posts: 11194 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Personally, I wouldn't buy a die just for this application (plus, I would prefer to use coated lead bullets anyhow). Fred's comment above is correct, although I would add a side-note it is recommended for most plated bullets that they be loaded to be shot at lower velocities to avoid separation. That being the case I would (and do when using plated bullets) use a light roll crimp for revolver loads. In the end, do what seems best to you!
 
Posts: 246 | Location: Parrish FL | Registered: March 03, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
I don't plan to use lead bullets.

I did early on, especially in my 625 revolver, but I migrated to FMJ from Precision Delta. They load easier, and clean up easier, and they (PD) are not *that* expensive if you buy quantity. You might consider the Redding micrometer adjustable taper crimp die. It is not cheap, but it is the shiznitz (did I spell that right?).
 
 
Posts: 6774 | Location: South Congress AZ | Registered: May 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by henryaz:
... I migrated to FMJ from Precision Delta. They load easier, and clean up easier, and they (PD) are not *that* expensive if you buy quantity.

Minimum order quantity is 1000, though. Initially I'm buying small quantities, until I figure out if I really like reloading.

Another possibility, recommended on another forum, was go with powder-coated cast bullets. Those are loaded like plain old cast bullets, and crimped the same, but have the low cost and low mess properties of plated w/o the problems you can have with plated.

quote:
Originally posted by henryaz:
You might consider the Redding micrometer adjustable taper crimp die. It is not cheap, but it is the shiznitz (did I spell that right?).

You did. They don't make one for .45 Colt.

More-and-more it's looking like plated bullets can be a PITA to load properly. Somebody on another forum mentioned an article in a recent Blue Press about reloading using plated bullets. That author recommends using a case guage: Gradually increasing the crimp pressure until a loaded round just falls out of the case guage freely.

The article's in the June 2017 Blue Press

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ensigmatic,




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
 
Posts: 11194 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
Another possibility, recommended on another forum, was go with powder-coated cast bullets. Those are loaded like plain old cast bullets, and crimped the same, but have the low cost and low mess properties of plated w/o the problems you can have with plated.

I know they are very popular. They do load like lead, meaning they can use less powder than the equivalent FMJ bullet, because they seal better in the bore. Lead, and powder coated, and at least one brand of plated (Berry's) are .001" larger than their FMJ brothers. And another brand of plated (Raniers) is sized like FMJ. For example, in 9mm, the FMJ and Raniers are .355", while the lead, powder coated and Berry's are .356". In .45, they are .451" and .452". I tried, and never cared much for plated. And I certainly would not load them for revolver unless they had a cannelure for roll crimping.
 
 
Posts: 6774 | Location: South Congress AZ | Registered: May 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:

More-and-more it's looking like plated bullets can be a PITA to load properly.



This is just not true. If you know the correct method to load FMJ and lead bullets, you will have no problem loading plated bullets. I have been loading them for the last 7-8+ years with zero problems. Your money, your choice, but don't cast them to the side strictly on what some of the internet "experts" say.
 
Posts: 3565 | Location: Az | Registered: May 27, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by henryaz:
I tried, and never cared much for plated. And I certainly would not load them for revolver unless they had a cannelure for roll crimping.

Well, I got 'em, and I certainly ain't throwin' 'em away or just storin' 'em forever, unused, so I guess I'm gonna figure out how to make 'em work Smile

quote:
Originally posted by GT-40DOC:
If you know the correct method to load FMJ and lead bullets, you will have no problem loading plated bullets.

I'm new to this reloading thing. Very new. As in: Other than reloading 7mm TCU at a friend's place some 30+ years ago: Never done it before.

But I study. A lot. And I'm cautious. If it can be done, I'll figure out how to do it.

quote:
Originally posted by GT-40DOC:
I have been loading them for the last 7-8+ years with zero problems. Your money, your choice, but don't cast them to the side strictly on what some of the internet "experts" say.

And there you go. Some people say "Run away!" Others say "No problemo."

I probably should start with something a bit less "twitchy," though. Either jacketed or coated. They each seem a bit more straight-forward.

Thanks for your comments/input, everybody!




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
 
Posts: 11194 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think the magazine would prevent excessive bullet creep in a pistol.

flashguy




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When they ask me, "Paper or plastic?" I just say, "Doesn't matter to me. I am bi-sacksual."
 
Posts: 18614 | Location: Dallas, TX | Registered: May 08, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by ensigmatic:
Well, I got 'em, and I certainly ain't throwin' 'em away or just storin' 'em forever, unused, so I guess I'm gonna figure out how to make 'em work Smile

You *could* load them in your .45ACP. They would probably need to be seated a bit deeper than a more normal 230gr RN, so just be careful you can achieve a .45 OAL without compressing your powder charge.
 
 
Posts: 6774 | Location: South Congress AZ | Registered: May 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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Appreciate the suggestion, henryaz, but I think I'll try 'em for their intended purpose and see what happens.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
 
Posts: 11194 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You can roll crimp over the ogive if you like, just reduce your loads and work up.

Or crimp them wherever you like, they're soft and will take it just fine.

Personally I gave up on plated bullets long ago. Unimpressed with the accuracy, troubles with undersized bullets (even when buying double struck ones) and not enough savings over jacketed.

IMO, use them up and buy some lead bullets. The .45 Colt and lead are made for each other.


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Posts: 14440 | Location: A little box of pine on the 7:29 | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Nullus Anxietas
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quote:
Originally posted by cas:
You can roll crimp over the ogive if you like, just reduce your loads and work up.

Seat it deep? Yeah... little voice in my head is saying "I don't like that idea very much" Wink

quote:
Originally posted by cas:
Or crimp them wherever you like, they're soft and will take it just fine.

Well, that's the problem. The lead is usually softer than hard cast and the plating isn't very thick, so it's easy to deform the bullet and/or cut through the plating, either of which can lead to very undesirable results.

quote:
Originally posted by cas:
Personally I gave up on plated bullets long ago.

Yeah, I will likely forgo plated in the future.

quote:
Originally posted by cas:
IMO, use them up and buy some lead bullets. The .45 Colt and lead are made for each other.

Don't like lead. Just too bloody messy. But power-coat looks like a viable solution, so, once I actually get to doing some reloading, I'll try some powder-coated ones. Perhaps from Bayou Bullets.

The good news is the Dillon crimp die I'm looking to acquire should work quite well on powder-coated lead bullets.




"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system,,,, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe
 
Posts: 11194 | Location: S.E. Michigan | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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