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I shot a few any-rifle-any-sight (aka MROS, sort of) matches back in the day, but I found that the optics magnified my natural wobble to the point that it just didn't work for me. I much prefer match rifle - the wobble is the same either way in terms of MOA, but with aperture sights you don't see it as much and it doesn't freak me out like shooting a scoped rifle from a sling does.

I know F-class was started with us older guys in mind. What I've seen in most of the matches I've shot that have had an F-class category though, is that the majority of the F-class shooters are younger folks, still well on the short side of 40. Almost seems like cheating except that the smaller target makes up for it, and a .308 drifts the same amount whether it's fired from a sling or from a bipod. Wink
 
Posts: 4741 | Location: Portland, OR | Registered: February 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Expert308, you are very wise.

Yes, optical sights will show you how much you wobble, you can even detect your heartbeat in the scope.

You know, they say that you can control your heartbeat when shooting. I don't know about that, but what I have noticed, and I think I've mentioned this in the past, is that when I'm lying prone alongside my rifle and I'm fixin' to shoot, my heartbeat calms down very fast. Doesn't matter what I was doing up to that point. I don't do anything consciously to calm it down, it just does. I figure it's all subconscious and I don't think about it, but I do notice it.

Yep, old George Farquharson got that division going and in the late 1990s before passing away and that's where the name comes from; F-Class.

You are right that a lot of younger folks are jumping directly into F-class, but let's face it; scopes are ubiquitous on rifles now. Also, we have a lot of military coming out to play with us and they bring their equipment.

Up to 600 yards they can do ok, but the 1000 yards and conditions can really put a world of hurt on them. And for many, that's too humbling so they don't come back. Those that do, get better as they learn.

The F-class rings are 1/4 the size of the regular HP rings. Yes, the .308 bullets will drift the same, but that's why you see people using boutique bullets and babying their handloads almost to the point of wining and dining them and then taking then to bed. I stop at the heavy petting. :-)

We're always on the lookout for additional BC points, but there are limits now being imposed for the Worlds competition, so there's that.
 
Posts: 2385 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of rduckwor
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quote:
you can even detect your heartbeat in the scope



Here's a good example of hearbeat deviation.



The horizontal is heart beat. The vertical I pulled. I was re-zeroing a rifle after adding a muzzle brake; off the bench at 100 yards.

I have difficulty with heart beat off the bench, not so much prone, but the bench is difficult for me. I am rather tall and getting comfortable at the bench is a struggle.

Anyway, I notice the wobble in the scope, but it was hot as hell (Alabama summer) and I just want to get a zero and get back into the air conditioned truck.

Nikon: Interesting observation. Nothing I have been taught or read shows that a person can exert any influence over their heart rate though many have claimed to be able to do so.

I think it is more a mental phenomenon, "getting in the zone" and simply not noticing the heart beat any longer.

But, I am no Zen master.

RMD




Some men are morally opposed to violence; they are protected by men who are not.
 
Posts: 17895 | Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by NikonUser:
You know, they say that you can control your heartbeat when shooting. I don't know about that, but what I have noticed, and I think I've mentioned this in the past, is that when I'm lying prone alongside my rifle and I'm fixin' to shoot, my heartbeat calms down very fast. Doesn't matter what I was doing up to that point. I don't do anything consciously to calm it down, it just does. I figure it's all subconscious and I don't think about it, but I do notice it.

I have a neurological condition, a Familial Tremor. People who don't know about it keep asking me if I'm nervous about something. Nope, it's the tremor. When I really am nervous (or angry, or really hungry) it's like I'm having my own private earthquake.Big Grin Sometimes it gets so bad that I can't hold a gun on target. I've DNF'd a couple of matches on account of it - I was just wasting ammo.

A few years ago I and a friend of mine went and shot a handgun silhouette match. You know, where you lie on your back with your knees in the air and the gun laid along the outside of your leg. Anyway, my buddy was watching me shoot and he told me later that several times, just a fraction of a second before I let a shot go, the tremor would stop. Some kind of a biofeedback think maybe, maybe similar to your heartbeat. I dunno. But my buddy isn't the only person that's noticed it so I guess it's real.
 
Posts: 4741 | Location: Portland, OR | Registered: February 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by rduckwor:
quote:
you can even detect your heartbeat in the scope

The horizontal is heart beat. The vertical I pulled. I was re-zeroing a rifle after adding a muzzle brake; off the bench at 100 yards.

I have difficulty with heart beat off the bench, not so much prone, but the bench is difficult for me. I am rather tall and getting comfortable at the bench is a struggle.

Anyway, I notice the wobble in the scope, but it was hot as hell (Alabama summer) and I just want to get a zero and get back into the air conditioned truck.

Nikon: Interesting observation. Nothing I have been taught or read shows that a person can exert any influence over their heart rate though many have claimed to be able to do so.

I think it is more a mental phenomenon, "getting in the zone" and simply not noticing the heart beat any longer.

But, I am no Zen master.

RMD

I know, right? It's uncanny. I don't do anything and while I've heard of people who say they can control it, I don't know how to do it. For me, it just calms itself very quickly and that's it. Don't ask me how, it just does.

I don't pay it any attention, I just go into my shooting routine. I'll bet that if I tried to analyze it or pay attention to it, it would screw me up.

This may be similar to the biathlon competitors who ski like mad and shoot very straight. They must be having similar manifestation.

I guess after years and decades of competition shooting and mentally trying to calm down and shoot, it just happens automatically now.
 
Posts: 2385 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Expert308:
quote:
Originally posted by NikonUser:
You know, they say that you can control your heartbeat when shooting. I don't know about that, but what I have noticed, and I think I've mentioned this in the past, is that when I'm lying prone alongside my rifle and I'm fixin' to shoot, my heartbeat calms down very fast. Doesn't matter what I was doing up to that point. I don't do anything consciously to calm it down, it just does. I figure it's all subconscious and I don't think about it, but I do notice it.

I have a neurological condition, a Familial Tremor. People who don't know about it keep asking me if I'm nervous about something. Nope, it's the tremor. When I really am nervous (or angry, or really hungry) it's like I'm having my own private earthquake.Big Grin Sometimes it gets so bad that I can't hold a gun on target. I've DNF'd a couple of matches on account of it - I was just wasting ammo.

A few years ago I and a friend of mine went and shot a handgun silhouette match. You know, where you lie on your back with your knees in the air and the gun laid along the outside of your leg. Anyway, my buddy was watching me shoot and he told me later that several times, just a fraction of a second before I let a shot go, the tremor would stop. Some kind of a biofeedback think maybe, maybe similar to your heartbeat. I dunno. But my buddy isn't the only person that's noticed it so I guess it's real.


Yeah, I'm familiar with that type of shooting. I did a little bit of it in the late 1970s, early 80s, but I never got into it in any big way.

However, more to your point, it's very probable that since your brain knew what was coming up it would act that way.

When I go to a match, I like to watch others shoot when it's not my turn. I go up and down the line and I see the old folk who have been competing for a long time. The rifle barrel simply doesn't move while they are preparing for the shot. It's as if it the shooter and rifle were frozen together. Then the shot breaks and it's a surprise as there was absolutely no discernable movement.

People who watch me shoot will know when I'm about to pull the trigger, because that's when I move my trigger finger from alongside the rifle into the triggerguard. It comes right out if I elect not to shoot or when the shot is taken. I've studiously worked on keeping off the trigger until the last few seconds and then off again.
 
Posts: 2385 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by rduckwor:
quote:
you can even detect your heartbeat in the scope



Here's a good example of hearbeat deviation.



The horizontal is heart beat. The vertical I pulled. I was re-zeroing a rifle after adding a muzzle brake; off the bench at 100 yards.

I have difficulty with heart beat off the bench, not so much prone, but the bench is difficult for me. I am rather tall and getting comfortable at the bench is a struggle.

Anyway, I notice the wobble in the scope, but it was hot as hell (Alabama summer) and I just want to get a zero and get back into the air conditioned truck.

Nikon: Interesting observation. Nothing I have been taught or read shows that a person can exert any influence over their heart rate though many have claimed to be able to do so.

I think it is more a mental phenomenon, "getting in the zone" and simply not noticing the heart beat any longer.

But, I am no Zen master.

RMD


rduckwor, I hope you read this. I have the funny sensation that I owed you a response about something and I can't remember what it was about. It's been a rough couple of weeks and I have been travelling and I just can't remember this stuff. Please tell me I was just dreaming.
 
Posts: 2385 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That's understandable. Life is hard for you upper class shooters!! Smile

The thread was about my DOPE change in a 6.5CM and a tall target test I did. I'll link it here:

http://sigforum.com/eve/forums...0601935/m/4560027504

You don't owe me nuttin'. I have benefited greatly from your advice.

Thanks,

RMD




Some men are morally opposed to violence; they are protected by men who are not.
 
Posts: 17895 | Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Great, thanks. Now I have to remember what my thought process was.
 
Posts: 2385 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Don't sweat it. I will work it out eventually and be the better for having thought it through.
Thanks,

RMD




Some men are morally opposed to violence; they are protected by men who are not.
 
Posts: 17895 | Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Well, after Lodi, I am adding an extra step in my loading regimen. Introducing bullet pointing. Yuck.

Some background. The Nationals at Lodi introduced me to ETs, electronic targets. The system in place at WGC is an acoustic system designed to trigger off of the supersonic signature of a bullet. There are two planes covered by 8 microphones, which detect the bullet since the distance between the two planes is know, doing some math with the differential in recording the signature is used to determine where the bullet hit on target and as a byproduct we also get the velocity at the target. The system also records the temperature as that is the only thing that affects the speed of sound.

As you shoot on the target, your velocities at the target are displayed and you also get the standard deviation and average velocity for the string. A team member and I traveled to Lodi to shoot there and we use the same bullet. My barrel is a 34 inch, his is a 30 inch and he uses more powder than I but our velocities are similar at the target. The material difference came with the SD values. His SD figures were usually lower than mine, and in some cases, they were half of mine. We use the same powder (Varget,) and both load to the kernel and everything, but the one glaring difference is that he points his bullets and I don't. On the paper I had elevation issues whereas he was not having any and I hated to lose points to elevation issues.

Up to now, that is. I placed an order for the Whidden system even while we were still in Lodi and it got here shortly after I did. I will now be pointing my bullets. Curiously enough the week before leaving for Lodi we both shot a match at our local club, a 600 yard match and he shot a 200-11X on the first match and I shot a 200-13X and then I elected not to shoot matches 2 and 3 due to intense heat. It seems that bullet pointing for 600 yards or less is not worthwhile for our bullets, but at 1000 yards, it does come into play.

I don't want to leave any more points on the loading table so I am introducing bullet pointing in my loading procedures. Sigh.
 
Posts: 2385 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I love it when a plan comes together.

Today was my first match since Lodi and I had some ammo to burn through. I did point 100+ rounds this past week and loaded a box for the match because even with all the remnants I had, I needed another 14 rounds for the match today.

I annealed 300 cases last weekend and then resized and trimmed 100 case on Sunday and loaded them yesterday with my CM1500 and my AND fx-120i with the Omaga trickler. I kept the load at .02 grain.

I seated these 100 cases with the pointed bullets and went to the match this morning.

I am now a believer in pointing bullets. I burned through my remnants for the first two matches then after 6 rounds for record on the third match, I switched to the pack of 100 pointed bullets. I knew the shot would be high so coming off an X on shot 6, I held same place, but placed the horizontal line at the bottom of the 10 ring and shot. I got a 9 at 12 o'clock. I dialed out 3 clicks on the scope (3/8 MOA down) and fired the next 13 rounds rather quickly. I dropped a single point on these 13 rounds, a 9 at 9 o'clock, improper wind call. I have never had such a flat waterline at 1000 yards. I caught some fat 10s but if I had had any elevation issues they would have been 9s. My elevation was under 1 MOA at 1000 yards today but only with these pointed bullets.

So, I gained 3/8 MOA of elevation, and no more 9s or worse out the top or the bottom. This was an eye opener and it made a believer out of me. I wish I had started this pointing stuff sooner.
 
Posts: 2385 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Damn! One more thing to add to the reloading Wink regimen!!!

RMD




Some men are morally opposed to violence; they are protected by men who are not.
 
Posts: 17895 | Location: L.A. - Lower Alabama | Registered: April 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah, that was my reaction also. And the die isn't cheap either.

For a while now, I thought I was getting away from having to do that by buying expensive bullets. The JLKs are 56 cents per unit.

But when you can actually detect the results of such a small change on the target, you have to do what you have to do.

That's the cost of trying to stay competitive at that level; you can't afford to leave any points on the loading table.

In hindsight, after seeing my performance at the Nationals, it would have helped a whole lot if I had pointed these bullets.

That's now part of the process.
 
Posts: 2385 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So was that the only benefit you saw in using the JLK's? Put another way: Given that you're going to be pointing them anyway, are you inclined to switch to a somewhat less expensive bullet, like Berger for example?
 
Posts: 4741 | Location: Portland, OR | Registered: February 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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An excellent question. At this time, no. I did quite a bit of sampling and comparing a year or so ago between the JLK and the Berger offerings (and also similar Sierra MK.) I found the JLK to be consistently much closer to the actual weight than the Bergers and especially the Sierras. The JLKs were within .1gr of the weight, IF they varied. The Bergers varied more and the SMKs even more. I also looked for ogive consistency and the JLKs were much more consistent.

The guys who use the Berger are trimming AND pointing. I'm just pointing. I have now down close to 400 and I have noticed that the meplats are consistently clean and it's only about half that need pointing, the others are very close and pointing does very little for the. But for consistency sake, I do them all. It's very fast. I now have enough to finish the year and get into next year. I taught my youngest on how to do that and she loves doing it, "for daddy." She does like shooting her .22 even more.
 
Posts: 2385 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Just a quick update after the first 1000 yard match of the new year. On the first relay this morning, I was one point from equaling the current F-TR 1000 yard 20 round national record. The pointed bullets are amazing. The temperature was in the 20s at that time, but the winds were very calm. At first. After the first match finished, the Sun started burning off the copious frost on the ground and the mirage was a bear for the rest of the day and the wind was just dreadful. Pointed bullets didn't help much after the first match, but at least, I could only blame myself, not the equipment in any way.
 
Posts: 2385 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Last week, as I was feverishly getting ammunition loaded for a match that ultimately turned out to be cancelled, I dumped 100 cases of Lapua .308 Palma brass in my old trusty rusty Lyman Turbo tumbler 2200 and the thing died on me. Can you believe that? It was only about 28 years old and had only been used every few weeks since.

Here I had a load of brass, sticky with Imperial wax sitting in walnut crumbs and a match the following weekend.

Amazon.com to the rescue and on Tuesday, a box landed at my door step holding my new Lyman Pro Magnum Tumbler. I transferred the contents of my old tumbler into the new one, plugged it and turned it on. The first thing I noticed, well not the first thing, the second thing. No, not the second thing, the third thing I noticed, nope, wrong again, it was the fourth thing. Ok, never mind, I noticed these things in the following order:

1- My old one was orange, this one is black.
2- My old one had a bigger bowl, this one is smaller but holds all I need or would ever use.
3- The new cover is metal whereas the old one has a transparent plastic cover.
4- The new one has a washer and wingnut holding the cover, I kept the old screw and plastic washer from the old one and it works just great on the new one.
5- The old one had a power switch that stuck out, this one has a rocker switch.
6- And the thing I was talking about earlier is that the new one is MUCH quieter. This is well appreciated.

I let my brass tumble for 2.5 hours. It came out sparkling clean.

After fishing out all the brass, I ran it through my Giraud trimmer in 5 minutes and I love the technology. This is so much easier than it used to be.

I elected to no get the easy-flow model of the tumbler because I never used that feature on my old tumbler and it caused more headaches. I saved about $50 not taking the auto-flow model.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/prod...ages00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 
Posts: 2385 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by NikonUser:
6- And the thing I was talking about earlier is that the new one is MUCH quieter. This is well appreciated.

Especially if you have Graboids in the neighborhood.
 
Posts: 4741 | Location: Portland, OR | Registered: February 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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