quote:

Originally posted by DrDan:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:
OK. Alternative situation. You are asked to step out of your vehicle while on school property. Stepping out while wearing a gun is a felony. Refusing a cops order is also not a good idea, and makes Mr Officer cranky.

outside the vehicle is legal here. Unlawful possession inside buildings is illegal, but what is unlawful, and that has really yet to be tested on this basis. Permitted CCDW is lawful here.......

jljones, I believe you are in Florida. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Florida statute 790.053 prohibits open carry, 790.115 prohibits weapons on school grounds, and 790.06(12) prohibits CCW on school grounds, not just buildings. It looks like if a cop asks a person carrying a firearm to get out of their vehicle on school property, they are violating at least one of these statutes. If you know otherwise, I'd really like to know, as I have looked and haven't found it. Not trying to nitpick, just trying to clarify the situation. As far as I can tell, the only legal way to have a firearm on school grounds is detailed in 790.115, or secured within a private vehicle.

790.053
790.06
790.115

Only a retarded prosecutor who failed crim law would file charges against you in the situation Fenris described.

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Originally posted by AKSuperDually:

quote:

Ever hit a road block at night? Get pulled over because "your vehicle resembled one" they were looking for?

No. Does that happen a lot where you are at? I've never seen a checkpoint or roadblock other than on TV.

You raise a legitimate point, but how often does that happen?

Every 4th of July, Memorial Day, Labor Day, New Years Eve....... Where I grew up.

quote:

Originally posted by flesheatingvirus:
Behaving in manners that usually won't get you pulled over (speeding, etc.) is great, but that will not necessary avoid encounters with LE on the road. Ever hit a road block at night? Get pulled over because "your vehicle resembled one" they were looking for?

Keep in mind, that in SOME states, the state law requires you to inform the officer of your CCW status if you are carrying a weapon. Your state may not but be advised if you travel with it.

Kevin

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:
OK. Alternative situation. You are asked to step out of your vehicle while on school property. Stepping out while wearing a gun is a felony. Refusing a cops order is also not a good idea, and makes Mr Officer cranky.

I would ask the officer.

Say something to the effect "I will get out of the vehicle if you wish, but technically if i do i would be in violation of the law by that action. What would you like me to do officer?"

Then it's him telling you to do it if you get out of the car. He can't lock you up for doing what he asks.

Kevin

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Originally posted by Dallas239:

quote:

Originally posted by DrDan:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:
OK. Alternative situation. You are asked to step out of your vehicle while on school property. Stepping out while wearing a gun is a felony. Refusing a cops order is also not a good idea, and makes Mr Officer cranky.

outside the vehicle is legal here. Unlawful possession inside buildings is illegal, but what is unlawful, and that has really yet to be tested on this basis. Permitted CCDW is lawful here.......

jljones, I believe you are in Florida. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Florida statute 790.053 prohibits open carry, 790.115 prohibits weapons on school grounds, and 790.06(12) prohibits CCW on school grounds, not just buildings. It looks like if a cop asks a person carrying a firearm to get out of their vehicle on school property, they are violating at least one of these statutes. If you know otherwise, I'd really like to know, as I have looked and haven't found it. Not trying to nitpick, just trying to clarify the situation. As far as I can tell, the only legal way to have a firearm on school grounds is detailed in 790.115, or secured within a private vehicle.

790.053
790.06
790.115

Only a retarded prosecutor who failed crim law would file charges against you in the situation Fenris described.

I am sure you are right in this case. I was responding to the statement that a firearm outside a vehicle on school property is ok.

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As an attorney (in Virginia and federal courts only)...........

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By the way, the taking of personal property from the person of another without a sound legal justification is grand larceny in Virginia, good for twenty years in the Spring Street Hotel, not to mention civil damages. I worked on a case in which the cop took the gun away and emptied the cartridges and threw the (Corbon) cartridges into the underbrush. He gave the gun back, but not the cartridges. Ooops, that was grand larceny.

No isn't. Correct me if I'm wrong,but Virginia statute does not list the elements of larceny in general and relies on common law to establish that. Common law establishes larceny as a specific intent crime with one of the elements being an intent to permanently deprive the owner of the items taken. This is clearly not the case with temporarily taking someone's gun on a traffic stop.

I would like to see the part of the Virginia code that states:

quote:

....the taking of personal property from the person of another without a sound legal justification is grand larceny in Virginia, good for twenty years.....

For what it's worth, in the absence of legislation mandating it, I don't believe the police have the right to disarm you on a traffic stop for no other reason than the fact that you're armed and committed a minor traffic violation. A Terry pat-down based on reasonable suspicion requires a reasonable belief by the police that someone is potentially armed AND dangerous. I don't think having a CCW permit and running a stop sign equates to a reasonable belief that the subject may be "armed and dangerous".

If this were not the case (armed AND dangerous), the police could go around disarming anyone who was armed (security guards or other cops included) for no other reason than the fact that they were armed.

On the other hand, a smart officer is going to do what it takes to go home at the end of the night. If he feels he needs to take your gun because of the way you look, act, your attitude, etc, he's an idiot of he doesn't follow his gut feeling whether or not he can reasonably articulate you being possibly dangerous.

quote:

Originally posted by SigPhil:

quote:

As an attorney (in Virginia and federal courts only)...........

quote:

By the way, the taking of personal property from the person of another without a sound legal justification is grand larceny in Virginia, good for twenty years in the Spring Street Hotel, not to mention civil damages. I worked on a case in which the cop took the gun away and emptied the cartridges and threw the (Corbon) cartridges into the underbrush. He gave the gun back, but not the cartridges. Ooops, that was grand larceny.

Correct me if I'm wrong,but Virginia statute does not list the elements of larceny in general and relies on common law to establish that. Common law establishes larceny as a specific intent crime with one of the elements being an intent to permanently deprive the owner of the items taken. This is clearly not the case with temporarily taking someone's gun on a traffic stop.

I would like to see the part of the Virginia code that states:

quote:

....the taking of personal property from the person of another without a sound legal justification is grand larceny in Virginia, good for twenty years.....

You missed where he said "...and emptied the cartridges and threw the (Corbon) cartridges into the underbrush."

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You missed where he said "...and emptied the cartridges and threw the (Corbon) cartridges into the underbrush."

First, where did bobby lee's post that I replied to say anything about "throwing bullets in underbrush"? Second, I doubt the jerk cop who threw someone's bullets in the bushes to delay their reloading progress even fits the crime of larceny.

If you want to be that picky about "intent", half of the people here who post to look for approval about being in the grocery store parking lot and moving their coats while getting their keys out of their pocket with the actual intent of showing their guns to someone who "didn't look right" would be in prison for felonious assault.

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:

quote:

Ever hit a road block at night? Get pulled over because "your vehicle resembled one" they were looking for?

No. Does that happen a lot where you are at? I've never seen a checkpoint or roadblock other than on TV.

You raise a legitimate point, but how often does that happen?

I hit one going home on a Saturday night last month. There is a big alcoholism problem in this state, so you may see more here than in other areas. I was riding with my girlfriend. It went just as if we were pulled over, "License, registration, proof of insurance, etc." I never notified that I was armed. Note that it is NOT required in NM.

Man, I love this thread. Lots of good back and forth without people being hateful. Without exchanges like this, it is impossible for me to grow and learn. I figure it holds true for others as well.

On the "ever been stopped looking for a car like yours" note. It happens. It happens a lot. Car companies seem to really market certain cars in certain colors hard. And we get dozens of BOLOs a day from local, city, state, and the feds on all kinds of vehicles, sometimes specific, sometimes not.

It happens. I've had to apologize a bunch.

quote:

Originally posted by DrDan:

quote:

Originally posted by Dallas239:

quote:

Originally posted by DrDan:

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:

quote:

Originally posted by Fenris:
OK. Alternative situation. You are asked to step out of your vehicle while on school property. Stepping out while wearing a gun is a felony. Refusing a cops order is also not a good idea, and makes Mr Officer cranky.

outside the vehicle is legal here. Unlawful possession inside buildings is illegal, but what is unlawful, and that has really yet to be tested on this basis. Permitted CCDW is lawful here.......

jljones, I believe you are in Florida. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Florida statute 790.053 prohibits open carry, 790.115 prohibits weapons on school grounds, and 790.06(12) prohibits CCW on school grounds, not just buildings. It looks like if a cop asks a person carrying a firearm to get out of their vehicle on school property, they are violating at least one of these statutes. If you know otherwise, I'd really like to know, as I have looked and haven't found it. Not trying to nitpick, just trying to clarify the situation. As far as I can tell, the only legal way to have a firearm on school grounds is detailed in 790.115, or secured within a private vehicle.

790.053
790.06
790.115

Only a retarded prosecutor who failed crim law would file charges against you in the situation Fenris described.

I am sure you are right in this case. I was responding to the statement that a firearm outside a vehicle on school property is ok.

Not in FL. However, FL and KYs penal code is very similar.

quote:

Originally posted by jljones:
Man, I love this thread. Lots of good back and forth without people being hateful. Without exchanges like this, it is impossible for me to grow and learn. I figure it holds true for others as well.

On the "ever been stopped looking for a car like yours" note. It happens. It happens a lot. Car companies seem to really market certain cars in certain colors hard. And we get dozens of BOLOs a day from local, city, state, and the feds on all kinds of vehicles, sometimes specific, sometimes not.

It happens. I've had to apologize a bunch.

"White Toyota Camrys"

Hereabouts its a "lifted Ford 4wd Pickup with rust spots." That nets about 100 stops an hour.

quote:

Originally posted by SigPhil:

quote:

You missed where he said "...and emptied the cartridges and threw the (Corbon) cartridges into the underbrush."

First, where did bobby lee's post that I replied to say anything about "throwing bullets in underbrush"? Second, I doubt the jerk cop who threw someone's bullets in the bushes to delay their reloading progress even fits the crime of larceny.

If you want to be that picky about "intent", half of the people here who post to look for approval about being in the grocery store parking lot and moving their coats while getting their keys out of their pocket with the actual intent of showing their guns to someone who "didn't look right" would be in prison for felonious assault.

Also, taking out bullets and throwing them in underbrush is not simply delaying the reloading process. If you take the 15 rounds from my P30 and throw them into underbrush, I'll never find all of them.

quote:

Also, taking out bullets and throwing them in underbrush is not simply delaying the reloading process. If you take the 15 rounds from my P30 and throw them into underbrush, I'll never find all of them.

Sorry, guess I did miss it. Nevertheless, since it's public info. since he worked on it as a case, I'd love to see the warrant that was issued for "grand larceny" for either taking the gun temporarily with no intent to permanently deprive the owner OR for throwing bullets in the bushes. I'm going to call BS on that one.

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§ 18.2-95. Grand larceny defined; how punished.

Any person who (i) commits larceny from the person of another of money or other thing of value of $5 or more, (ii) commits simple larceny not from the person of another of goods and chattels of the value of $200 or more, or (iii) commits simple larceny not from the person of another of any firearm, regardless of the firearm's value, shall be guilty of grand larceny, punishable by imprisonment in a state correctional facility for not less than one nor more than twenty years or, in the discretion of the jury or court trying the case without a jury, be confined in jail for a period not exceeding twelve months or fined not more than $2,500, either or both.

quote:

Originally posted by SigPhil:

quote:

Also, taking out bullets and throwing them in underbrush is not simply delaying the reloading process. If you take the 15 rounds from my P30 and throw them into underbrush, I'll never find all of them.

Sorry, guess I did miss it. Nevertheless, since it's public info. since he worked on it as a case, I'd love to see the warrant that was issued for "grand larceny" for either taking the gun temporarily with no intent to permanently deprive the owner OR for throwing bullets in the bushes. I'm going to call BS on that one.

quote:

§ 18.2-95. Grand larceny defined; how punished.

Any person who (i) commits larceny from the person of another of money or other thing of value of $5 or more, (ii) commits simple larceny not from the person of another of goods and chattels of the value of $200 or more, or (iii) commits simple larceny not from the person of another of any firearm, regardless of the firearm's value, shall be guilty of grand larceny, punishable by imprisonment in a state correctional facility for not less than one nor more than twenty years or, in the discretion of the jury or court trying the case without a jury, be confined in jail for a period not exceeding twelve months or fined not more than $2,500, either or both.

Larceny from the person of another of over $5. Taking (took bullets from the person of another, albeit in the gun at the time), asportation (threw them to another place), intent to permanently deprive (something for the courts, but I'd say that when you throw something as small as bullets into underbrush, you intend that the person does not find them).

That's what I'm going with anyways.

Cops actually manage to get a lot of guns, knives, harpoons, boards with nails in them, medieval maces and whatnot off of for-real bad guys without shooting or otherwise maiming them, a normal human with a carry permit is hardly going to get lit up when handing over on request a gun to a cop who requests it. In a traffic stop you, and we, are at far greater risk of getting rear-ended by a drunk driver, so the faster you can recite your soliloquy about protests and rules and the nature of good versus evil the quicker we can get this over with and both be on our way.

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I'm not going to start an argument...but IF I'm going to disarm, or allow an officer (not including one's I know personally) to handle my weapon...it's going to be under protest.

Not a lot of protest. A simple reply,"I'd feel most comfortable if we just leave my firearm where it is..and neither one of us handles it. I'm willing to comply with all instructions, and this is your stop...so you are making the call here, but if you want to disarm me I'd like a supervisor or another officer out here first." I do not have to inform in my state...so it would be out of ordinary for it to come up.

Well. If in your state you don't have to inform, this won't be an issue unless it is made to be one. It goes without saying if you act within the law then you are correct.

That said, if an officer disarms you, he DOES have the right if he can articulate in court his reasoning to do so. The vast majority of the time, and i can say that if i were the officer i would most likely not disarm you, the officer will not care and most likely appreciate your honesty.

In reality, the vast majority of officers are not worried about folks with CCW's. Most of those folks are the exact opposite of the folks they worry about weapons with.

Kevin

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In reality, the vast majority of officers are not worried about folks with CCW's. Most of those folks are the exact opposite of the folks they worry about weapons with.

I hope so.

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Originally posted by sig239srt:

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In reality, the vast majority of officers are not worried about folks with CCW's. Most of those folks are the exact opposite of the folks they worry about weapons with.

I hope so.

I'd say 90% of the time, maybe even more...they are. But I've met my share of tools in this world, and a few of them are cops. If it smells like shit...I call it.

If asked to do something that doesn't seem right...I'm gonna say something. Doesn't mean I'm not going to do it, or that I'm going to argue...but you can very politely give a verbal protest while complying, short and to the point. It will make sure that the officer REALLY wants you do to something.

Now if it is unsafe...and I know it, I'm going to do my best to get a supervisor out there.

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That said, if an officer disarms you, he DOES have the right if he can articulate in court his reasoning to do so.

That's a pretty big IF in a lot of states.