Halloween night, house to house with my 3 year old, we get to a neighbors house...

His German Sheppard charges us halfway across the property. I covered my kid but held off on pulling my 239 and shooting the dog. I was kicking myself in the ass when I got home. I relied on my gut in this situation but if it had gone wrong, the consequences could have been severe. In retrospect I feel I should have drawn on the dog and at least fired a warning shot into the ground to scare the dog. It all happened so quick, I had all this legal stuff going through my mind!!! Obviously the guy should have had the dog under control; it was Halloween for god's sake!!! I'm just pissed at myself; I feel like I should have known what to do. It all worked out fine but what if...

Thoughts…

I am not a LEO, but you did the right thing. With so many other Kids around lot of other scenarios could have played out.

Item 1: you protected your child, no one got bit, no one got shot - I call that a win!

One observation/opinion: I'm generally against the idea of ever discharging a firearm to "scare off" or dissuade an attacker. It's not a noise-maker - it's a lethal self defense tool. If you need to shoot, make sure you shoot to stop the threat through the most effective means.

A couple of "fact" questions:
Where was the dog owner? What was his reaction? How far did the dog charge, and how far away was he when he stopped?

Some judgmental questions:
Did it appear to be an attack, or was the dog simply over-excited by all the Halloween goings on? What's you general level of handgun skill? Could you have drawn and fired an aimed shot into a rapidly closing small target one handed while moving your child out of the line of attack? Would your kid have suffered hearing damage or burns from the discharge?

Some legal questions:
If you made the shot, could you have justified to the responding officers (and potentially to a jury) that you were in fear of death or grave bodily harm to you or your child? If you shot into the ground, are you sure the bullet wouldn't have ricocheted and hit a bystander? What kind of area do you live in, and is it a generally gun friendly, or anti-gun area? I'll work on the assumption that CCW is legal in your area...

All in all, I'll go back to my initial comments. No injuries to anyone, and you didn't have to interact with the police or make a potential long-term enemy of your neighbor. Don't beat yourself up!

Regards,

Kevin

Too many variables are unknown for me to comment. But for now have a talk with the owner. Next step is to call animal control...

I would suggest you search out defending yourself from a dog. Except for some war dogs most single dogs can be handled without a gun. I am a true animal lover and it is hard to follow through unless you feel your life is in jeapardy. I won't go into detail but offense not defense. You have identified an area of concern now follow through with training.

I'm retired LEO. I always said that anytime an event that serious occurred and no one got hurt..You did the right thing under the circumstances. AND you can't second guess that!

kjdoski,

thanks for your well thought through response.

Item 1, agreed.

"One observation/opinion: I'm generally against the idea of ever discharging a firearm to "scare off" or dissuade an attacker. It's not a noise-maker - it's a lethal self defense tool. If you need to shoot, make sure you shoot to stop the threat through the most effective means."

Agreed. This thought came from a friend, a non carrying individual. Seemed like a plausible idea at the time but i tend to agree with you.

"A couple of "fact" questions:
Where was the dog owner? What was his reaction? How far did the dog charge, and how far away was he when he stopped?"

1. Dog owner appeared from around the corner too late to control the situation.
2. Tried to control situation and then issued multiple apologies.
3. Dog charged to within 5 ft.
4. 3 ft.

“Some legal questions:
If you made the shot, could you have justified to the responding officers (and potentially to a jury) that you were in fear of death or grave bodily harm to you or your child? If you shot into the ground, are you sure the bullet wouldn't have ricocheted and hit a bystander? What kind of area do you live in, and is it a generally gun friendly, or anti-gun area? I'll work on the assumption that CCW is legal in your area..."

1. I tend to think so.
2. I probably would have shot to kill and there was minimal chance of bystander being hit. Very rural.
3. Gun friendly.
4. I have CCW.

“All in all, I'll go back to my initial comments. No injuries to anyone, and you didn't have to interact with the police or make a potential long-term enemy of your neighbor. Don't beat yourself up!"

Agreed, just was kicking myself a bit, the what if's... Thanks for your thoughts.

Unless the dog is shy of loud noises, a warning shot is not going to do anything - a dog has no comprehension of what getting shot means. That's on top of all the other reasons that warning shots aren't good.

Getting out of s situation without gunplay is FAR better than the alternative. The fact that you and yours are unhurt is proof enough that you handled it fine. And offing someone's dog on their property is just going to make a legal mess, justified or not.

And charging dogs aren't necessarily all that easy to hit or stop. There doesn't seem to be any consensu in the SWAT field about how to handle it - dogs are one of those issues that everyone acknowledges but no one has actually thought out some viable tactics for, that don't involve a lot of risk.

The only recommendation I might offer is to always have a backup or alternative plan, like OC, an impact weapon or a knife.

So what did the dog do?

At the last moment, it became docile and friendly. I am very familiar with dogs and perhaps this helped with my not overreacting yet it made me wonder, what if... Are the consequences of a shot fired and a dog dead better than my child being injured... This is a simple question for me. I have always been a big believer in the "GUT". It was not till I got home that I second thought the whole ordeal.

I think you'd be hard pressed to justify shooting his dog, on his property. After all it's presumably doing what it's supposed to do - guarding it.

I think you did right by getting your kid out of the way and standing your ground. I will say though, he should have known better than to have his dog off the chain on a night when kids are likely to be calling.

Second guessing seems to be somthing that comes with the gun toting territory.

If everyone went home, you did the right thing .

No offense, but you shoot my dog on my property your getting shot too. You handled the situation the right, what if you did shoot and the owner felt the same way I do?

quote:

No offense, but you shoot my dog on my property your getting shot too. You handled the situation the right, what if you did shoot and the owner felt the same way I do?

It frightens me that people like you are allowed to have guns. If that dog attacked me or my child and I shot it, you would shoot me!!! You insane mf’r! Get a life!!!

quote:

Originally posted by UP1911fan:
No offense, but you shoot my dog on my property your getting shot too. You handled the situation the right, what if you did shoot and the owner felt the same way I do?

Doesn't matter. I understand your point in regards to being on your property, etc., but this situation taking place on Halloween night with many people out and about, and it being socially acceptable to be on another person's property, changes the scenario drastically.

If someone comes onto your property on a socially accepted night of doing so (Halloween) when you are welcoming it (by leaving your front light on), and your dog charges them in an aggressive manner (intent on harm), they should do EVERYTHING in their power to protect themselves and their kids. The owner should have put his dog up or restrained it in a way to not harm anyone, or get itself harmed. Or, he should have just not welcomed trick-or-treaters.

Now, if you're speaking of a normal everyday night in which no one else should be on your property, I completely understand and support your statement. I'd do the same with regards to my dogs in this situation.

You did the right thing.

I understand it is Halloween and the owner had his head up his butt by having the dog out when a reasonable person would expect little kids to be around, but while you may not be criminaly responsible for shooting at the ground or the dog, I would expect the owner to be pretty pissed and you could have expected a lawsuit against yourself. There is a reasonable expectation that a dog would want to defend (or visit with) people on its own property. You were the foreign variable in that scenario, not the dog.

You also could have created a dangerous situation by pulling your gun out. How so? Now you're a guy with a gun out on the owner's property, possibly shooting at his dog or in the direction of his house and his perception could be very different regarding the agressiveness of the dog and the whole situation. If he were armed also you could have just become a giant target along with your child putting both of you in much more danger than you would have been from just the dog. Sometimes one of the burdens of carrying a concealed handgun is knowing when or when not to pull the gun. You did the right thing by leaving it in its holster. You can analyze it to learn from it, but don't go back and beat yourself up.

Wow. I'm not qualified to speak on much of anything, but it seems to me that if the OP had snuck into the property owner's backyard, where his sweet little miniature poodle was curled up asleep in an 8-foot high barbed wire pen, and shot the dog in its sleep, the property owner would still be looking at a murder one charge if he shot the OP. Much less if a large, ferocious-looking dog had charged the guy and his little child on Halloween night in the front yard.

I mean, call me crazy...

NGB

quote:

Doesn't matter. I understand your point in regards to being on your property, etc., but this situation taking place on Halloween night with many people out and about, and it being socially acceptable to be on another person's property, changes the scenario drastically.

If someone comes onto your property on a socially accepted night of doing so (Halloween) when you are welcoming it (by leaving your front light on), and your dog charges them in an aggressive manner (intent on harm), they should do EVERYTHING in their power to protect themselves and their kids. The owner should have put his dog up or restrained it in a way to not harm anyone, or get itself harmed. Or, he should have just not welcomed trick-or-treaters.

Now, if you're speaking of a normal everyday night in which no one else should be on your property, I completely understand and support your statement. I'd do the same with regards to my dogs in this situation.

I agree 100%. This scenario was specific to Halloween night only. I would not have posted the topic if it were any other time.

Thank you everyone for your responses. I do think I did the right thing. My instinct was to protect my child first. If the incident had escalated to a full blown attack I just hope my instincts and reactions would be enough.

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:
Wow. I'm not qualified to speak on much of anything, but it seems to me that if the OP had snuck into the property owner's backyard, where his sweet little miniature poodle was curled up asleep in an 8-foot high barbed wire pen, and shot the dog in its sleep, the property owner would still be looking at a murder one charge if he shot the OP. Much less if a large, ferocious-looking dog had charged the guy and his little child on Halloween night in the front yard.

I mean, call me crazy...

NGB

You're not crazy, but I think a lot of this would have to do with the state in which you live, along with the specific city's DA and they way they interpret the case.

Any attorney worth his/her weight would easily be able to reason that if the intruder shot the dog, they could very easily go shoot the owners next, etc.

I agree the OP did the right thing. Even drawing the gun could have caused more grief than it was worth. However, if it truly came down to him and his family or the dog, I'd support whatever means he chose to defend himself. These types of things are very easy to hindsight, and it's hard to say what anyone would or would not do in any given situation. All we can do is train to the best of our abilities and have faith in that.

The good news is everyone (including dogs) went home safe with full mags and no lawsuits.

quote:

Originally posted by harbinger:

Any attorney worth his/her weight would easily be able to reason that if the intruder shot the dog, they could very easily go shoot the owners next, etc.

.

Well, I didn't realize that. Some kids in our 'hood tied a neighbor's cat to a tree last month for kicks. I bet they had no idea the owner could have legally killed them, reasoning that they could have very easily gone into his house and tied him or his wife up next.

I bet he could have used the "read it on the internet" defense.

[Dang, I'm being a bastard again! Sorry, Hbinger.]

NGB