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Tactics: When the Police arrive, they may not understand that you are a good guy or victim Login/Join 
Ignored facts
still exist
posted
There is a situation unfolding in Portland, OR where it seems a good guy was shot by the police when his CCW gun fell out of its holster, and he went to retrieve it. We don't have all the facts, the situation just occurred less than 48 hour ago, and it's way to early to place any blame, if any exists.

here is what is unfolding: A group of friends gets attacked which is common in Portland. One of the "good guys" had his gun fall out of its holster during the attack. The cops have shown up by this time and are just starting to sort things out. Suddenly they see the CCW holder go to retrieve the gun that fell out of its holster. The cops open fire and kill the good guy because they just didn't understand who he was who and what had happened.

The video seems to have audio where the cop is just yelling "GUN" for about 1/2 second, and then the cop starts shooting.

some links showing what we know so far...
video of shooting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IPN3QoMBvo
http://katu.com/news/local/fri...as-loving-father-vet
https://www.kgw.com/article/ne...es-say/283-569090275

So, I guess there are a few take aways ---
*Have a good holster
*When the cops arrive, if they see a gun, they might just shoot with little or no warning.
*The cops have no idea who the victim is, and all they see is a gun.
*It would be unreasonable to say the victim should not have gotten involved if his party truly got attacked.
*It would be unreasonable to say the victim should not have been out after 1:00 AM since these things happen all the time and at all hours in Portland.

I'm looking to the forum to provide more answers on how to avoid getting shot when your CCW weapon becomes a factor when you are getting attacked, and the police arrive. I have no advice, and no idea how to prevent a tragedy like this.

Oh, when the police arrive, the attack may not be over. You can see that clearly in the youtube video linked above. The cop is there and the fight is still on.

Also, there is an instance locally where the police simply waited during an attack on a woman and let it continue because they stated they didn't have enough manpower to engage and safely stop the attack on the woman. (sorry I can't find a link to this story -- it seems to have disappeared from the news). So just because the first policeman arrives, again, the fight may not be over. This makes things even more dangerous and unpredictable.


.
 
Posts: 6965 | Location: Sunset Highway MP37, then turn South | Registered: February 28, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
quote:

*Have a good holster - YES

*When the cops arrive, if they see a gun, they might just shoot with little or no warning - YES

*The cops have no idea who the victim is, and all they see is a gun - YES
 
Posts: 38556 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by radioman:

...http://katu.com/news/local/fri...as-loving-father-vet...


From the above link:

About nine hours before the shooting early Friday morning, KATU News interviewed Washington at a Buffalo Wild Wings in downtown Portland about the Oregon State Beavers playing in the College World Series.

ABC News Tonight showed part of the interview of the guy with his pals at Wild Wings, and it sure looked he had a beer in front of him. Was he carrying then? Did he continue to drink until the incident nine hours later? I don't know.

If I can find that interview I'll post a link.
 
Posts: 13079 | Location: Eastern Iowa | Registered: May 21, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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"It's just a really unfortunate situation," said Donald Dietz, 25, an employee at the Cheerful Tortoise who witnessed the shooting. He had asked a co-worker to call the police when he saw a conflict inside the bar escalate and move outside. He was only a few feet away when the man was shot.

"The unfortunate situation is he was trying to help and break things up," Dietz said of the man who was shot.

Dietz recalled the man reaching for his gun after police told him three or four times not to.

"They warned him multiple times not to reach for it, but he did,"
Dietz said. "I don't want the message out there that the cops were trigger-happy." Dietz said employees at the Cheerful Tortoise did everything they could to stop the situation from escalating like it did. "It's just that people got drunk and stubborn," he added. "They had to do it," he said of the officers involved. "People think they were overzealous, but they had to do it."


Complete article:

https://www.oregonlive.com/por...ortland_state_p.html
 
Posts: 13079 | Location: Eastern Iowa | Registered: May 21, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think that probably sums it up. Much is written on the subject on internet forums, and there is a ton of handwringing over it with a lot of keyboard commandos sure of outcome.

Fact of the matter is if you follow two really simple rules, you'll cut your chances of being shot by the police by 990 percent.

1- Don't go places at times where bad shit happens.
2- When dealing with the police, do what they say, when they say it.

Follow those two simple rules, and your chance of being shot by the police for no good reason go to about the same as you being struck by lightning. It is assumed that those who might heed this advise aren't getting caught red handed in felonious activities, don't partake in the drug trade, aren't trafficking in humans, etc. Eliminating those factors alone reduce your chances greatly of not being shot by the police "for no good reason".

Cops fuck things up. They at times do shoot people that do not need to be shot. BUT, a gun owner probably has about the same chance of winning the lottery TWICE as they do being shot by the police if they just act like they have common sense in how they approach things.


_______________________________________________________________________
www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 31563 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It looks like police were on-scene and the guy reenters the conflict when he did not need to.
 
Posts: 1110 | Location: County 18, OH | Registered: April 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Ice Cream Man
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Retention holsters are your friend, when useable. Bianchi makes some decent ones for G36s/19s, etc.

When I was crawling all over machinery, etc my gun came out a few times when I fell/got snagged and pulled out. They were good holsters, its just that a friction fit will not hold when a heavier/full-size gun gets some momentum going.
 
Posts: 3492 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Myrtle Beach, SC | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of abnmacv
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Friends describe Portland as the epicenter of meth and heroin addicts who have been welcomed by local left-political-"progressive" government. The police who did the shooting were "campus police" not city LEOs. Sad situation but when an LEO says don't reach for a gun it's wise to stop and show your hands.


U.S. Army 11F4P Vietnam 69-70 NRA Life Member
 
Posts: 632 | Registered: June 11, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ignored facts
still exist
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Sigmund:


Dietz recalled the man reaching for his gun after police told him three or four times not to.

"They warned him multiple times not to reach for it, but he did,"
Dietz said. "I don't want the message out there that the cops were trigger-happy." Dietz said employees at the Cheerful Tortoise did everything they could to stop the situation from escalating like it did. "It's just that people got drunk and stubborn," he added. "They had to do it," he said of the officers involved. "People think they were overzealous, but they had to do it."


Complete article:

https://www.oregonlive.com/por...ortland_state_p.html


Sadly, we can't map those warnings to not grab the gun to the events in the cell phone video. It looks from the video that things went south quickly, and with little if any warning.

That said, I agree once the cops arrived, the guy who was shot still seemed to be a little too hands-on with other people. That part is very clear from the released videos. Kinda shows that maybe he was a little drunk, or had a "I-wanna-be-a-cop-too" syndrome; or both.

I hope they release the blood tox report soon. If he was indeed drunk from the blood report, then I will cease to be concerned.


.
 
Posts: 6965 | Location: Sunset Highway MP37, then turn South | Registered: February 28, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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They released some info today, but nothing major and no toxicology results. It's all in this link:

https://www.oregonlive.com/por...target2box_targeted_

This is one of the comments that supports my theory of intoxication. It would seem Briboy24 has no reason to lie. Some is direct observation, some is his speculation:

Briboy24
updated 1 hour ago
Reply to @SerenityWow: I was at BWW's watching the game when he was being interviewed. He was well on his way to being intoxicated then, and a more likely chain of events is...he took the 5-10 minute walk right up SW 5th to the Tortoise, and continued to drink. In most states, it's illegal to carry (even with a permit), when consuming alcohol. Additionally, a Tortoise employee who witnessed the incident said the police directed him not to reach for the gun at least 3 x's before they fired. If he had used a little common sense at any point, he'd still be alive.
 
Posts: 13079 | Location: Eastern Iowa | Registered: May 21, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
Stupid hurts.
 
Posts: 38556 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
1- Don't go places at times where bad shit happens.
2- When dealing with the police, do what they say, when they say it.


Words that will keep you alive.
 
Posts: 5693 | Registered: April 02, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
...and now here's Al
with the Weather.
Picture of guardianangel762
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When the police arrive...

This takes 3 minutes at least how do you still have a gun out 3 minutes later.

I know how long our response for a shooting is if you are lucky it gets dispatched in 45-60 seconds.

Think about how much ammo you have on you and how long it takes to shoot it out. In the time it takes for the cops to get there if you haven't gotten off the X and to a safer place to make your own 911 call you have no tactics.


___________________________________________________
But then of course I might be a 13 year old girl who reads alot of gun magazines, so feel free to disregard anything I post.
 
Posts: 8976 | Location: Lake Stevens, WA | Registered: March 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by guardianangel762:
When the police arrive...

This takes 3 minutes at least how do you still have a gun out 3 minutes later. Did you watch the video? The gun was never in play until the last seconds. The CCW holder fell over and the gun came loose and was on the ground. He reached to pick it up and got shot. What if you have to hold someone at gun point until police arrive. What do you do then?

Think about how much ammo you have on you and how long it takes to shoot it out. In the time it takes for the cops to get there if you haven't gotten off the X and to a safer place to make your own 911 call you have no tactics. The only shots fired in this scenario were by the police. I it would not matter if he had one round or 30. There was never an active attempt to bring a gun into this situation.



I think the biggest factor is the second you hear or see the police, you stop what your doing immediately and put your hands up. With the exception you are actively defending a physical attack to yourself.

The guy in this case continued his attempt to break up the fight after police arrived. He was not being attacked in any way and could have exited the situation at any time.


_____________________________

There is no cure for stupidity, you either die from it or with it.
 
Posts: 3787 | Location: Pittsburgh, PA, USA | Registered: February 27, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ignored facts
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by gpbst3:

The guy in this case continued his attempt to break up the fight after police arrived. He was not being attacked in any way and could have exited the situation at any time.


That's the part I still don't get. This part is clear in the video. Why was he still involved once the cops arrived? IMHO this is 90% of what got him killed.

still waiting for the BAC report.

Of course, being Portland, there are protests that the cops should be disarmed Eek

https://www.opb.org/news/artic...ting-campus-protest/

By the way, PSU Campus Police have the same certifications and standards as all other police agencies in the state, so it would be wrong to disarm them based on their charter as campus police.


.
 
Posts: 6965 | Location: Sunset Highway MP37, then turn South | Registered: February 28, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Who else?
Picture of Jager
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I think that probably sums it up. Much is written on the subject on internet forums, and there is a ton of handwringing over it with a lot of keyboard commandos sure of outcome.

Fact of the matter is if you follow two really simple rules, you'll cut your chances of being shot by the police by 990 percent.

1- Don't go places at times where bad shit happens.
2- When dealing with the police, do what they say, when they say it.

Follow those two simple rules, and your chance of being shot by the police for no good reason go to about the same as you being struck by lightning. It is assumed that those who might heed this advise aren't getting caught red handed in felonious activities, don't partake in the drug trade, aren't trafficking in humans, etc. Eliminating those factors alone reduce your chances greatly of not being shot by the police "for no good reason".

Cops fuck things up. They at times do shoot people that do not need to be shot. BUT, a gun owner probably has about the same chance of winning the lottery TWICE as they do being shot by the police if they just act like they have common sense in how they approach things.


We have an expert. EXCELLENT ANSWER. It really is that easy. Common sense goes a long way.

When LE shows up, let them take charge. If it looks like they need help, ask them. I've done it multiple times. "Officer, do you need help?" If they said yes, I joined the fray and followed directions. I've had some, upon arriving, that asked if I would assist, watch their back or help look for evidence. Odd, but it happens. I've only jumped in a few times as a bouncer or working security when we'd manhandled assclowns outside, but they still wouldn't leave. LE would show up and the assclowns would start having their way with them. I'm not letting an officer I called get hurt. I only called them to make things official.
 
Posts: 2137 | Location: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: October 30, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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All so true...

the force on force classes I've taken will usually have one scenario where you have or are considering engaging a situation with your weapon and a police officer shows up... the best possible solution is to have no gun showing and your palms facing the officer... second best is palms facing the officer or at at least be laying face down in the dirt with arms stretched out in front of you....
 
Posts: 322 | Location: Greenville, SC | Registered: January 30, 2017Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of fredj338
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!st, don't take a gun to a fist fight.
If the gun comes out, it needs to go back to the holster ASAP after it is need, wait for the cops.


IF YOU AREN'T HANDLOADING, YOU AREN'T SHOOTING ENOUGH!
NRA Instruc: Basic Pistol & Met Reloading
 
Posts: 7711 | Location: ca, usa | Registered: February 17, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCZXZMYyRl4

https://www.tactical-life.com/...ting-what-to-reveal/





Safety, Situational Awareness and proficiency.



Neck Ties, Hats and ammo brass, Never ,ever touch'em w/o asking first
 
Posts: 46460 | Location: Henry County , Il | Registered: February 10, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 229DAK
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Common sense falls off exponentially the drunker you get.


You MATTER. Unless you multiply yourself by the speed of light squared. Then you ENERGY.

The afternoon knows what the morning never suspected.
-- Robert Frost
 
Posts: 6932 | Location: Northern Virginia | Registered: November 04, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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