quote:

Very familiar with Cooper, though I would argue that nobody but Jesus did not get anything wrong.

Man, I didn't say he was infallible. My comment was in reference to you saying he "missed it on this one".

NoGaBiker,

You're a pretty hard guy to talk to over the internet. You infer and assume a lot.

I have a feeling we'd get along in person, but you should try to take things here at face value and not read into it as much.

It really has been good discussing this with you, but I feel it has run its course. I hope you're able to speak with one of the owners of these stores in order to understand whether the sign applies to you or not. I would definitely be curious to know if their policies are close to those in place here in my town.

Actually, I'm a bigger bastard in person! You're getting off light.

NGB

quote:

Thoughts on Gunshops forbidding carry inside...

It's bad marketing if nothing else...

One shop here makes their employees open carry.

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:
Actually, I'm a bigger bastard in person! You're getting off light.

NGB

See! That shit is funny!

Like I said, the interwebs makes it hard to read inflection, sarcasm, and different types of humor. It's most likely that I'm just taking you wrong.

Seriously, please keep us informed if you do happen to ask one of the shop owners.

[mumble]
Something about Dennys giving away weapons permits to bastards...
[/mumble]

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:

quote:

Originally posted by bendable:
People who think that every one that owns a gun, shoots a gun, carries a side arm dailey or carries a gun concealed with a permit is safe, situationaly aware and profieciant,with that gun are in some wierd dream state.

What ever the shop owner says, goes.

I hear you, Bendable. But would you make this same statement if the "shop owner" owned a Denny's instead of a gunshop? Shouldn't he be equally concerned about customers who are carrying in his business but not, to quote you, "safe, situationally aware, or profficient?" If we are afraid of these numbskulls in a gunshop, why not in any other store?

Usually, the gunshop owner is prohibiting people from taking out and finger-fucking loaded weapons, whereas the Denny's guy is prohibiting people from having them on or about their person, period.

What we *also* have here is a "conflict of rights." Very similar to the old adage "your right to extend your arm ends where my nose begins." That is to say, there is a conflict between basic property rights and the RKBA. Or, between basic property rights and the right of self-defense. (can be looked at both ways)

It also varies a good deal from state-to-state. Some states have stronger systems of property rights. In some states, its very easy for store owners to create a "limited public forum," which may change the calculus somewhat. Further complicating all of this is the "special status" which gun stores are handled under the law in many states (which also varies considerably from state-to-state).

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:
Well, I certainly don't need to defend myself, but since you asked I'll explain.

I believe in holding people to the same standards. When a conservative politician who I once supported is shown to have cheated, lied, raised taxes, whatever, I don't make excuses for him, I don't vote for him, and I agree with the people who want him removed from office, EVEN IF THEY ARE MY SWORN POLITICAL ENEMIES. I believe in being honest with oneself. When my favorite brand of gun or sportscar or camera comes out with a stinker I denounce it as such.

So I felt compelled to point out the fact that I hardly EVER open the CCW forum without seeing a thread titled "My favorite restaurant won't let me carry so I'm never going there again," yet I have never seen a post (nor could I find one searching) that claimed the same thing vis-a-vis a gunshop or range that posted the exact same message on their door. I was wondering why nobody boycotts such gunshops.

Me, I don't boycott these gunshops because I don't bitch and moan about Walmart or anyone else choosing to forbid gun carry on their property . Why? Because I believe in INDIVIDUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS even more than I believe in the right to carry. Or I should say, I believe that such rights trump the right to carry, which I believe in equally strongly. So if Larry Liberal bought and paid for his business property and chooses to restrict someone's rights of any kind on his property, I gotta grit my teeth and say okay, have at it. And sure, I can refuse to go in there on principle, and I may do so, but if it's going to inconvenience me to avoid his store, I'll still go there. As for my personal protection while in there, I'll still carry (and do so legally) even though he has posted such a sign, at least in Georgia.

I don't forbid anyone carrying in my business; I never even implied that. I said I would prefer that any given person NOT be carrying, simply because, as pointed out here by several people, I have no idea if they are an ignorant yahoo or a skilled gun handler. There is no upside to me in them being in my business with weapons , and there is a potential (though remote) downside. So I would prefer they not be there armed. And thus I can understand why some other business owner might post signage forbidding it.

There.

NGB

Red: Last I checked (I used to work for a major subcontractor for W-M), there was no broad national policy, other than that "within the framework of appropriate state law and the decisions of both regional and district managers, store managers could make their own rules."

Blue: Isn't there an "upside" to them being in your business, period? At least where I'm from, a good customer is a good customer, armed or otherwise.

quote:

Originally posted by unokubi:

quote:

Originally posted by harbinger:
These policies are made to not allow a loaded gun in a case in the shop. In other words they don't want an employee being handed a loaded gun to inspect for trade/repair. I absolutely disagree with any business banning my ability to carry concealed.

I completely understand and agree with no loaded guns (unless they're being carried for self-defense). However, denying my right to defend myself is something I am highly opposed to.

There are definitely gun stores in high-crime areas of Orlando that have signs up forbidding concealed carry inside -- and it's not for the reasons outlined above.

tk

I may be reading your comment incorrectly and if that is the case, I apologize in advance.

They could very easily exempt "legal concealed carry" from this. And guess what? It would have the *exact* same effect on the hoodlums. The only people this exemption would have an effect on was the law abiding, and it would be a positive effect.

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

There is no upside to me in them being in my business with weapons, and there is a potential (though remote) downside.

You have got to be kidding??
NO upside to having law abiding legal concealed carry??
What is the purpose then?

It sounds like a Brady commercial.

Actually, you managed to misquote me (though subtly.) Reread the quote that you are responding to. It's right there at the top of your post. I'll pause a second so you can look at it...

Do you see the words "to me" in between "upside" and "in?" I don't state that there is no possible upside, but rather that an armed but unknown, untested, potential yahoo, AS DESCRIBED IN NEARLY EVERY POST IN THIS THREAD, being in my business provides no upside to me, and a possible downside. Might he by being armed provide an upside to himself? Sure; insofar as he doesn't know that I am in fact armed and providing for the security of my building he might feel a need to do so himself. But I'm not worried about this theoretical person's feelings; I'm committed to the best course for myself and my employees in this building, and that is best accomplished if no armed people, good or bad, evil or righteous, skilled or unskilled, other than myself are in this building.

People who think that's unfair are free to buy their own building and hire fifty people to work with them, and then institute whatever policies they want.

(And please remember, I have already stated I have no policy forbidding anyone from carrying -- only that I PREFER no one but me be armed.)

NGB

What is your PREFERence when it comes to LEOs?

Your statement regarding "hypocrisy" about 1/2way down pg.2 made me curious enough to ask.*


* The statement in question:

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:
My amusement comes from the unwavering refusal on this board of anyone to recognize and admit the hypocrisy of excusing a gunshop's "no carry" signage while denigrating any other business with similar signage.

quote:

Originally posted by shooter_tx:
NGB

What is your PREFERence when it comes to LEOs?

Your statement regarding "hypocrisy" about 1/2way down pg.2 made me curious enough to ask.*


* The statement in question:

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:
My amusement comes from the unwavering refusal on this board of anyone to recognize and admit the hypocrisy of excusing a gunshop's "no carry" signage while denigrating any other business with similar signage.

[/QUOTE]

No different. I would prefer that armed LEOs not be in my business. Unless, of course, someone has called them because a pot-smokin', long-haired, maggot-infested, Barbra Streisand-lovin' piece of human detritus is in there bothering me.

NGB

quote:

Originally posted by shooter_tx:

quote:

Originally posted by unokubi:

quote:

Originally posted by harbinger:
These policies are made to not allow a loaded gun in a case in the shop. In other words they don't want an employee being handed a loaded gun to inspect for trade/repair. I absolutely disagree with any business banning my ability to carry concealed.

I completely understand and agree with no loaded guns (unless they're being carried for self-defense). However, denying my right to defend myself is something I am highly opposed to.

There are definitely gun stores in high-crime areas of Orlando that have signs up forbidding concealed carry inside -- and it's not for the reasons outlined above.

tk

I may be reading your comment incorrectly and if that is the case, I apologize in advance.

They could very easily exempt "legal concealed carry" from this. And guess what? It would have the *exact* same effect on the hoodlums. The only people this exemption would have an effect on was the law abiding, and it would be a positive effect.

You didn't misread my quote, but I said in a previous post in this thread that I had asked the owners about this issue in my area, and this is what they told me. I am aware they can legally ban my carry gun, but my whole point (related to the original post) in this thread is that I wouldn't bitch about it, I'd just go elsewhere.

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:

quote:

Originally posted by shooter_tx:
What is your PREFERence when it comes to LEOs?

<snip>

No different. I would prefer that armed LEOs not be in my business. Unless, of course, someone has called them because a pot-smokin', long-haired, maggot-infested, Barbra Streisand-lovin' piece of human detritus is in there bothering me.

NGB

Hey, at least you're consistent.

I guess what a lot of us seem to be having trouble with here is exactly what kind of business you're running.

Most of us probably have in mind things like jewelry stores, hardware stores, etc, but you've mentioned before that you don't really have customers in your "store" or "business" (can't remember which term you used).

quote:

Originally posted by harbinger:

quote:

Originally posted by shooter_tx:

quote:

Originally posted by unokubi:

quote:

Originally posted by harbinger:
These policies are made to not allow a loaded gun in a case in the shop. In other words they don't want an employee being handed a loaded gun to inspect for trade/repair. I absolutely disagree with any business banning my ability to carry concealed.

I completely understand and agree with no loaded guns (unless they're being carried for self-defense). However, denying my right to defend myself is something I am highly opposed to.

There are definitely gun stores in high-crime areas of Orlando that have signs up forbidding concealed carry inside -- and it's not for the reasons outlined above.

tk

I may be reading your comment incorrectly and if that is the case, I apologize in advance.

They could very easily exempt "legal concealed carry" from this. And guess what? It would have the *exact* same effect on the hoodlums. The only people this exemption would have an effect on was the law abiding, and it would be a positive effect.

You didn't misread my quote, but I said in a previous post in this thread that I had asked the owners about this issue in my area, and this is what they told me. I am aware they can legally ban my carry gun, but my whole point (related to the original post) in this thread is that I wouldn't bitch about it, I'd just go elsewhere.

OK, wasn't sure. Way I read it now is that I didn't misread your statement, but that you also don't necessarily agree with the logic behind their decision (which is the only thing I was really commenting on w/ my post).

Ah, understood.

Well, to clarify, I completely understand and agree with the shops that do not allow loaded guns that are not being carried. I understand how this can get confusing and very dangerous for the employees, and I have no problem with it.

However, I do not agree with them banning my carry piece. Last thing I want to do is go into a shop with hundreds of dollars on me or come out with my newly purchased pistol, all the while being a sitting duck with no way to defend myself. I also don't like the idea of leaving my pistol in my car for a thief to steal.

quote:

Originally posted by shooter_tx:
I guess what a lot of us seem to be having trouble with here is exactly what kind of business you're running.

Most of us probably have in mind things like jewelry stores, hardware stores, etc, but you've mentioned before that you don't really have customers in your "store" or "business" (can't remember which term you used).

I'm a pimp.

quote:

Originally posted by harbinger:
Ah, understood.

Well, to clarify, I completely understand and agree with the shops that do not allow loaded guns that are not being carried. I understand how this can get confusing and very dangerous for the employees, and I have no problem with it.

However, I do not agree with them banning my carry piece. Last thing I want to do is go into a shop with hundreds of dollars on me or come out with my newly purchased pistol, all the while being a sitting duck with no way to defend myself. I also don't like the idea of leaving my pistol in my car for a thief to steal.

I agree, on both points.

Like the dude from Summit Gun Broker says:

quote:

I have been in the gun business for 28 yrs., and have damn near been shot twice by customers who don't know how to handle a gun, and that is why I no longer have a retail gun shop. I still have some great return customers but it would be hard for them to shoot me over the internet.

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:

quote:

Originally posted by shooter_tx:
I guess what a lot of us seem to be having trouble with here is exactly what kind of business you're running.

Most of us probably have in mind things like jewelry stores, hardware stores, etc, but you've mentioned before that you don't really have customers in your "store" or "business" (can't remember which term you used).

I'm a pimp.

Now that's funny.

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:

quote:

Originally posted by shooter_tx:
I guess what a lot of us seem to be having trouble with here is exactly what kind of business you're running.

Most of us probably have in mind things like jewelry stores, hardware stores, etc, but you've mentioned before that you don't really have customers in your "store" or "business" (can't remember which term you used).

I'm a pimp.

LOL... I know it's old-school and kinda hokey, but you've seen True Romance, right?

I've never heard of it. I just added to my NetFlix queue on your recommendation. It better be good. Is it sort of like Pride and Prejudice? OMG! I LOVED that!!!



NGB

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:
I have no ax to grind and don't really care that much, but I find it kinda ironic that many threads denounce the local Denny's or whatever for signage saying no firearms, yet I've never been in a gun shop or range that didn't loudly proclaim itself offlimits to loaded gun toters. I'm curious as to the reasoning. As a (non-gun-related) business owner I would prefer people not come into my business with firearms since a) I don't know them and don't know that they are proficient and b) I'm armed so I don't feel the need for their protection and c) I would worry about someone getting injured if a gun went off due to unsafe handling and me being liable if I knew about it. So I can see why a gun store owner would prefer to ban loaded guns from his shop. But if we're alright with that, why do we get mad at the Denny's manager?

Thoughts?

NGB

Fist of all, I don't condone no conceal weapon carry policy for ANY business.

Yes, you have your reasons why you don't want people bringing weapons in your business.

However, the fact remains that you are taking significant portion of my capability to defend myself against threat serious injury or death for YOUR convenience. No amount of reasons would change that fact.

And, for some people, not directed to you in particular, the only reason why they don't push the idea of making rule so that only they are the people who are allowed to be armed anywhere, even in public, is because they don't have power. And, they would push for that if they did have power. That idea sickens me.

It's not that I don't understand your concerns. If someone I don't particularly trust come in my house, I might demand they be unarmed too. But, there is a difference between demanding someone to be unarmed for entering a residence and a business owner demanding their customer be unarmed.

The difference is that because people have to rely on private service for most part of their essential business or personal needs, people are forced to be unarmed without choice, resulting in a state of effective gun ban.

In order for liberty to be preserved for the people, any power that has control over people's freedom has to be checked and controlled. In order for that to be effective, the power that has to be checked and controlled should not be limited to government, but any private entity also.

Example? If you have to take a bus to your workplace in a slum area, would you feel good if I ban concealed gun carry on my buses if I am the only person who runs the bus lines on your city?

What if something unexpected happened, and you've lost your home. You became a tenant in an apartment complex I own, and I demand that all tenants give up their guns when typing up a rental contract. Let's hypothetically say I'm a slum lord and you cannot afford any other apartments. Would any of the justifications you've used make you feel better?

Some would say "go to another business." But, to me that's just plain ignorant. First of all, there are not always suitable alternatives. Second, nature of only profit pursuing businesses is to make it so that you won't have a choice. Do you think Windows is dominant in OS market because Microsoft is all about giving you choices? I'm not saying that Microsoft is particularly evil or anti gun, but I'm just using it as an example.