quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

As a (non-gun-related) business owner I would prefer people not come into my business with firearms since a) I don't know them and don't know that they are proficient and b) I'm armed so I don't feel the need for their protection and c) I would worry about someone getting injured if a gun went off due to unsafe handling and me being liable if I knew about it.

Unless I am misreading something...

Lucky guess...

quote:

We see very few of this type of thing in Oregon.

Very true. Either you are assumed to carry, or assumed to not. In Portland, people assume no one has a gun...because they are blind to the world. In rural oregon, it is assumed that you do have a gun...because you don't live in Portland.



I may be over generalizing... lol.

NoGaBiker, in reading through this thread, it does appear that you are against permit holders carrying concealed, except of course, for yourself. That's the mentality that causes so many people to want to ban guns, CCW, etc (for everyone but themselves.)

Are you trolling on this forum?

Well, I certainly don't need to defend myself, but since you asked I'll explain.

I believe in holding people to the same standards. When a conservative politician who I once supported is shown to have cheated, lied, raised taxes, whatever, I don't make excuses for him, I don't vote for him, and I agree with the people who want him removed from office, EVEN IF THEY ARE MY SWORN POLITICAL ENEMIES. I believe in being honest with oneself. When my favorite brand of gun or sportscar or camera comes out with a stinker I denounce it as such.

So I felt compelled to point out the fact that I hardly EVER open the CCW forum without seeing a thread titled "My favorite restaurant won't let me carry so I'm never going there again," yet I have never seen a post (nor could I find one searching) that claimed the same thing vis-a-vis a gunshop or range that posted the exact same message on their door. I was wondering why nobody boycotts such gunshops.

Me, I don't boycott these gunshops because I don't bitch and moan about Walmart or anyone else choosing to forbid gun carry on their property. Why? Because I believe in INDIVIDUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS even more than I believe in the right to carry. Or I should say, I believe that such rights trump the right to carry, which I believe in equally strongly. So if Larry Liberal bought and paid for his business property and chooses to restrict someone's rights of any kind on his property, I gotta grit my teeth and say okay, have at it. And sure, I can refuse to go in there on principle, and I may do so, but if it's going to inconvenience me to avoid his store, I'll still go there. As for my personal protection while in there, I'll still carry (and do so legally) even though he has posted such a sign, at least in Georgia.

I don't forbid anyone carrying in my business; I never even implied that. I said I would prefer that any given person NOT be carrying, simply because, as pointed out here by several people, I have no idea if they are an ignorant yahoo or a skilled gun handler. There is no upside to me in them being in my business with weapons, and there is a potential (though remote) downside. So I would prefer they not be there armed. And thus I can understand why some other business owner might post signage forbidding it.

There.

NGB

This message has been edited. Last edited by: NoGaBiker,

Want a reason? Consider this incident:

This negligent discharge starts when the soon-to-be customer/victim entered a firearms retailer, somewhere in South Carolina. He strode to the counter, placed his carry weapon on the counter and asked what the weapon was worth in trade.

As the salesman reached for the weapon, the customer said, “It is loaded.” The salesman removed the magazine, retracted and locked the slide and recovered the chambered round. The weapon was a 9mm single action weapon, seven rounds in the magazine and one in the chamber, with grip and thumb safeties.

After some discussion about the proposed trade, the customer/victim stated that he would consider the trade further. At this point, the salesman asked the customer/victim if he had a CWP because the customer/victim did not have a case with him when he entered the store. The customer showed him his CWP, and the salesman re-loaded the weapon to its original condition, 7 rounds in the magazine, one round in the chamber, hammer down, safety on, all out of sight of the customer. By convention, this shop does not load weapons in sight of customers reasoning that a safe area in the back room reduces customer apprehension.

The customer holstered the weapon, walked to his late model Dodge pickup, and sat in the driver’s seat. Only the customer/victim witnessed what happened next. While checking the weapon, it discharged once, striking the customer/victim high on the inside aspect of the left calf, transiting the calf, fortunately missing bone, and exiting 1/2 way down the calf, and from there through the interior trim of the driver’s door finally leaving a pimple-like dent on the door’s exterior. The round did not pass outside of the vehicle. Nobody in the store heard the report even though the vehicle was within 18 feet of the store entrance.

The customer/victim dismounted, and asked store personnel to call EMS. Store employees brought him a chair, some water and interviewed him on the incident while waiting for police and EMS response. He was ambulatory and lucid throughout the incident. Blood loss was minimal, certainly less than 1/4 of a pint.

Some preliminary lessons:

All guns are loaded!

Never point a weapon at anything you are not willing to destroy.

Keep your finger off the trigger until the sights are on the target and you are ready to shoot.

Be sure of your target and what is behind it.

Some other observations:

The customer/victim had no personal knowledge of the condition of the weapon when it was returned to him. (Chambered round? Full magazine?). Lacking this knowledge, he was tempted to check. That part is perfectly legitimate. What may need further thought is the wisdom of depriving anyone of witnessing the act of loading because he or she must check anyway.

Hard ball (full metal jacket) 9 mm ammunition may have entry as well as exit wounds making rule 4 above a critical consideration. The other point to consider is the damage that would have resulted from modern personal defense ammunition. Had this been a modern personal defense round, irreparable tissue damage and arterial bleeding is quite possible.

Do not count on noise to tip you off about gunfire in the neighborhood. One might imagine that something so loud would be obvious to listeners accustomed to the sound, but reality has proven otherwise.

Everyone who handles a weapon needs to be righteous in his or her knowledge of the operation and indications of every weapon they handle. Every one, because all guns are loaded.

KLW

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:
I have no ax to grind and don't really care that much, but I find it kinda ironic that many threads denounce the local Denny's or whatever for signage saying no firearms, yet I've never been in a gun shop or range that didn't loudly proclaim itself offlimits to loaded gun toters. I'm curious as to the reasoning. As a (non-gun-related) business owner I would prefer people not come into my business with firearms since a) I don't know them and don't know that they are proficient and b) I'm armed so I don't feel the need for their protection and c) I would worry about someone getting injured if a gun went off due to unsafe handling and me being liable if I knew about it. So I can see why a gun store owner would prefer to ban loaded guns from his shop. But if we're alright with that, why do we get mad at the Denny's manager?

Thoughts?

NGB

quote:

Originally posted by klwells:
Want a reason? Consider this incident:

<Long Story>

[/QUOTE]

Okay, so you can provide an anecdote about an ND in a gun shop. We all know of NDs happening in other locations. Take Plaxico Burress, who shot himself in the leg in a NYC club carrying a Glock down his waistband. That could have been a Denny's just as easily. So we have anecdotal evidence that people can shoot themselves in gunstores, and we have anecdotal evidence that people can shoot themselves in non-gun-related businesses. So my original question remains: Why the double standard?

Thanks,

NGB

Simple,

At Denny's you would not normally put your finger on the trigger unless or until there was a threat.

At a gun shop, it is much more likely, particularly when you consider the possibility of a "newbie" handling a firearm that normally would be in a holster with the trigger covered, in a rack behind the counter, or safe under glass.

KLW

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:

quote:

Originally posted by klwells:
Want a reason? Consider this incident:

<Long Story>

Okay, so you can provide an anecdote about an ND in a gun shop. We all know of NDs happening in other locations. Take Plaxico Burress, who shot himself in the leg in a NYC club carrying a Glock down his waistband. That could have been a Denny's just as easily. So we have anecdotal evidence that people can shoot themselves in gunstores, and we have anecdotal evidence that people can shoot themselves in non-gun-related businesses. So my original question remains: Why the double standard?

Thanks,

NGB[/QUOTE]

all of those signs I have seen are for regular customers using range or to sell their weapons....not for those with concealed carry permits.

but it appears your issue is within your own business more so than the gun shops. Just as you dont know them....they dont know you or your level of skill with your said firearm. it works both ways.

I could tell a half dozen eyewitness accounts of dumb shit gun handling and an hour on the innernet will show you another dozen.

we all know that everyone that owns a car
has their limitations with that car.

Ive only seen one person disarmed and asked to depart.

its not the guns I have a problem with at all, its the dumbasses that don't know acceptable actions .

Take the Taco Bell customer that unholstered , unloaded and stripped a taurus on the dining table.

quote:

Originally posted by Chief_brock:
all of those signs I have seen are for regular customers using range or to sell their weapons....not for those with concealed carry permits.

but it appears your issue is within your own business more so than the gun shops. Just as you dont know them....they dont know you or your level of skill with your said firearm. it works both ways.

Wow.

My issue is not "with my own business." I have no issue there. My business is not even open to the public except on rare occasions, maybe twice a month when a single person delivers something. I don't forbid anyone carrying, I'm simply honest and analytical enough to recognize that (as stated clearly twice now) I would prefer that an unknown person not carry a weapon in my building. I would prefer not to pay taxes, but I do. I would prefer all the women I see were beautiful, but they're not. Does that sound like I forbid ugly women from entering my property?

I have NO PROBLEM with the gunshop forbidding concealed carry, which is exactly what their signage does, despite the fact that many of you are determined to "read between the lines" of signs that say very clearly and unequivacally, "Absolutely no loaded weapons beyond this point," etc. You may think you know what they mean, but that's what they say, which is the same thing the movie theaters/restaurants/stores we all seem to condemn say. So again, I have no problem with them saying that and I understand why they do.

My amusement comes from the unwavering refusal on this board of anyone to recognize and admit the hypocrisy of excusing a gunshop's "no carry" signage while denigrating any other business with similar signage.

That's all.

NGB

My local shop/range has the following rule - firearms can come into the shop one of three ways.

1 - In a case
2 - Action open and held by the barrel
3 - Legally holstered

I've never asked if they permit CCW or not, as my weapon is legally holstered. I always have a CCW when there or on the range.

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:
So how would you word the signs in a gunshop? They don't distinguish between the two purposes of having a gun in the shop that you have identified.

Keep it concealed and you wont have a problem...

To comment on the original content of this discussion.....
When entering a Cabela's retail store I was asked to allow them to check my Maxpedition Jumbo pack for a weapon (I was using it as a daddy bag for my daughter at the time, my weapon was IWB). This was done in such a way that several customers were looking and listening. I explained to the guy that if they didn't want CCW they should have properly posted this according to Texas Law and that if he was going to search me that he should probably be searching all of the womens purses too. I then called the manager by cellphone and spoke with him about the conduct of the employee. I just got a creepy feeling about the whole thing. The manager explained that they have a check in, inspection and escort for weapons that are to be sold, traded or inspected. They in no way want to discourage CCW. He agreed that the employee did not handle the situation correctly and said that he would address it.
Bottom line, I agree with RHINOWSO, I take the signs to mean that no loaded weapons should be brought in that may be handled by anyone. CCW remains what it is intended to be...a secret. Unless they post properly, according to the local laws, I just ignore them when it comes to my CCW.

quote:

Originally posted by harbinger:
These policies are made to not allow a loaded gun in a case in the shop. In other words they don't want an employee being handed a loaded gun to inspect for trade/repair. I absolutely disagree with any business banning my ability to carry concealed.

I completely understand and agree with no loaded guns (unless they're being carried for self-defense). However, denying my right to defend myself is something I am highly opposed to.

There are definitely gun stores in high-crime areas of Orlando that have signs up forbidding concealed carry inside -- and it's not for the reasons outlined above.

tk

No signs at the shops I frequent in the Kansas City area. If there was, I wouldn't go inside.

Some shops in Phx metro area say no loaded gun allowed inside.

I was in one last week in north Tempe that said "this includes CCW"

quote:

Originally posted by sig239srt:
Some shops in Phx metro area say no loaded gun allowed inside.

I was in one last week in north Tempe that said "this includes CCW"

I wouldn't do business with them. Who can afford to lose customers these days? That is not a smart business move for a gun store.

quote:

Originally posted by NoGaBiker:



I have NO PROBLEM with the gunshop forbidding concealed carry, which is exactly what their signage does, despite the fact that many of you are determined to "read between the lines" of signs that say very clearly and unequivacally, "Absolutely no loaded weapons beyond this point," etc. You may think you know what they mean, but that's what they say, which is the same thing the movie theaters/restaurants/stores we all seem to condemn say. So again, I have no problem with them saying that and I understand why they do.

My amusement comes from the unwavering refusal on this board of anyone to recognize and admit the hypocrisy of excusing a gunshop's "no carry" signage while denigrating any other business with similar signage.

That's all.

NGB

If you have a question, ask. I KNOW the policies of the local gun shops because I have asked. I don't in any way "read between the lines" with these stores.

Regarding your last comment, how am I being hypocritical? Since you claim everyone here is doing so by not denigrating the gun shops. I'll repeat my stance: if anyone wants to ban my firearm, I won't do business in their store. No hard feelings from me, it's their store to do what they want, but they don't need my money.

both my ranges indoor and out are different.

one is an indoor range attatched to a shop and has a sign that says no loaded weapons.
they do not distinguish between CCW on their sign but their policy is legal CCW is fine, but the wepon must remain holstered.

Bendable:

" People who think that every one that owns a gun, shoots a gun, carries a side arm dailey or carries a gun concealed with a permit is safe, situationaly aware and profieciant,with that gun are in some wierd dream state. "

I cannot tell you how many idiots walk into the gunshop pawnshop area with weapons of all kinds out in the open uncased in their hands...
sweep the counter help and customers...
shit once I got " shot " by some dumbass cute bitch trying a Crimson Trace Lasered pistol...

so I can see the concern of gunshop owners...

another shop : no loaded weapons except for legal CCW.

but I carry in anyway, sign or not. since it CCW and no one needs to know. but the ranges I frequent and the two shops I buy from the owner knows...and is fine with it.

my outdoor club no signs. and so far, no idiots.

quote:

Originally posted by smschulz:

quote:

As a (non-gun-related) business owner I would prefer people not come into my business with firearms since a) I don't know them and don't know that they are proficient and b) I'm armed so I don't feel the need for their protection and c) I would worry about someone getting injured if a gun went off due to unsafe handling and me being liable if I knew about it.

Unless I am misreading something then you are against legal concealed carry?

At least here in Texas unless there is the proper legal posting prohibiting legal concealed carry (IE: not a gun in a circle with a line thru it) > then I could give a crap about what anyone thinks.

Agreed. Without the State required signage I will enter and you will not know I am armed. Concealed is concealed.

My local gun range I took my CHL at has the no-loaded gun signage and I asked them about it. Their response was concealed is concealed and if they can tell I have a gun I am breaking the law.

I know where I can and cannot carry. I do respect the property owners rights to the extent that I will avoid future visits to your premises.