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The Ice Cream Man
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A) Will you carry it?

B) Can you shoot it, accurately?

C) How effective is the caliber? If it’s a 22 magnum, but you can shoot it well, it’s better than a hand cannon which you never practice with because it hurts too much
 
Posts: 3523 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Myrtle Beach, SC | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by SIG 229R:
I have a Bersa Thunder 380 and would place full confidence in it. The only problem with it is that just like all other 380’s the grip is a little short to suit me.


Ruger makes a nice +1 extension for the LCP. I'm on a smart phone but not smart enough to post a link.
 
Posts: 13251 | Location: Eastern Iowa | Registered: May 21, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Who else?
Picture of Jager
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I don't carry .380 ACP anymore because it didn't make sense when 9mm platforms were similar in size and offered better ballistics.

However, when I did, they were always loaded with FMJs for the various reasons stated in the linked comments, but primarily, inadequate penetration of most JHP rounds.
 
Posts: 2144 | Location: Phoenix, Arizona | Registered: October 30, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
I'm Fine
Picture of SBrooks
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You asked him in 2014, but he still referred you to a file/document from 2000. 17 or 18 years old.... bullets are better now..

quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
In 2014, I asked him directly. This is what he replied. I really doubt much has changed since. Certainly the physics hasn't changed.

Link

quote:

BBMW--most of our .380 and .38 sp testing has been done for LE agencies, so you will not find the data on the internet. The FBI has also done extensive testing and has come to the same conclusion--that no .380 loads meet the minimum penetration, expansion, and barrier requirements. This paper is available open source: Roberts GK: “Terminal Performance of .38 Special and .380 ACP Hollow Point Bullets Intended 
for Law Enforcement Back-up and Off Duty Self-Defense Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue 
Simulant”. Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):35-38, Spring 2000. The new HST .380 Auto load is probably the best of the worst, so to speak.


quote:
Originally posted by craigcpa:
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
You might want to understand who that poster is.

quote:

ABOUT GARY ROBERTS
Dr. Roberts is currently on staff at a large teaching hospital and Level I Trauma center where he performs hospital dentistry and surgery. After completing his residency in 1989 while on active military duty, he studied at the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory and became one of the first members of the International Wound Ballistic Association. Since then, he has been tasked with performing military, law enforcement, and privately funded independent wound ballistic testing and analysis. As a U.S. Navy Reserve officer from 1986 to 2008, he served on the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, as well as being a consultant to the Joint FBI-USMC munitions testing program and the TSWG MURG program. He is frequently asked to provide wound ballistic technical assistance to numerous U.S. and allied SOF units and organizations. In addition, he has been a technical advisor to the Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners, as well as to a variety of Federal, State, and municipal law enforcement agencies. He has been a sworn Reserve Police Officer in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he now he serves in an LE training role.


quote:
Originally posted by Augen:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BBMW:
The opinion of someone who's done significant research into the subject:

https://pistol-forum.com/showt...G-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp
[QUOTE]

That section you've quoted seems to be the posters' opinion. Further down it references a study however, that was from the 1980-90's whereas modern designs like the XTP didn't exist. Grain of salt situation.
Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP or better yet, don't use it at all. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is really not recommended for LE use and many savvy agencies prohibit them.


And the link provided is from a 2012 post. .380 balisstics have improved much since his research.


------------------
SBrooks
 
Posts: 3001 | Location: East Tennessee | Registered: August 21, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of dsiets
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quote:
Originally posted by JWF:
Here is the wrap-up of .380 commercially available ammo testing by Shooting the Bull 410. The gel tests for individual rounds can be found with a google search. I found this you-tube series very informative when searching for a round for my daughters G42.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GNtPHYwcDts


I had a similar question a year or so ago and this helps connect a few dots on understanding what manufacturers are are trying to achieve w/ each load.
Some of them have to be matched w/ the gun. Poor performance in one gun doesn't mean it should be discounted in others.
 
Posts: 5052 | Location: MI | Registered: May 22, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I used to have a link that was from the El Paso Times that reported in 2011 a retired Mexican cop was ambushed in his home by 4 armed cartel gang members wearing body armor and carrying AK47's. He killed 3 of the 4 BG's with headshots using only his lowly 380 pistol. Remember it is not the size of the DOG, but the size of the FIGHT in the dog that will win. God Bless Smile


"Always legally conceal carry. At the right place and time, one person can make a positive difference."
 
Posts: 2062 | Location: Sector 0001 | Registered: October 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of CQB60
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Under duress and when the adrenaline flows, you’re lucky to score half the rounds you send down range. This is where the 380 shines. Light recoil and from a good pistol, it can perform. I have a Glock 42 which has proven to be both accurate and reliable & partner it with Hornady critical defense ammo. A winning combination. It hides quite well in Galco classic lite shoulder holster.


_____________________________________________________________________
”At pretium libertatus“
امّا شما مشخص خواهد شد كه با همه شما را ملاقات کنند
 
Posts: 10909 | Location: Carolina but Texas in my heart | Registered: November 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Facts are stubborn things
Picture of armedprof
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I carry a P238 all the time. I can put all 7 rounds on paper in a very short amount of time and within a 4 inch circle at 20 feet. I love the little .380. I have often wondered if it would have enough fire power too. But I determined that for where I usually hang out, there is little chance I will ever find out. Every time I have had someone tell me the .380 is not powerful enough, I ask them if I can test the theory on them and they always decline... Smile





Do, Or do not. There is no try.
 
Posts: 1413 | Location: Charlotte, NC | Registered: February 24, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
You might want to understand who that poster is.

quote:

ABOUT GARY ROBERTS
Dr. Roberts is currently on staff at a large teaching hospital and Level I Trauma center where he performs hospital dentistry and surgery. After completing his residency in 1989 while on active military duty, he studied at the Army Wound Ballistic Research Laboratory and became one of the first members of the International Wound Ballistic Association. Since then, he has been tasked with performing military, law enforcement, and privately funded independent wound ballistic testing and analysis. As a U.S. Navy Reserve officer from 1986 to 2008, he served on the Joint Service Wound Ballistic IPT, as well as being a consultant to the Joint FBI-USMC munitions testing program and the TSWG MURG program. He is frequently asked to provide wound ballistic technical assistance to numerous U.S. and allied SOF units and organizations. In addition, he has been a technical advisor to the Association of Firearms and Toolmark Examiners, as well as to a variety of Federal, State, and municipal law enforcement agencies. He has been a sworn Reserve Police Officer in the San Francisco Bay Area, where he now he serves in an LE training role.


quote:
Originally posted by Augen:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BBMW:
The opinion of someone who's done significant research into the subject:

https://pistol-forum.com/showt...G-s-380-ACP-vs-38-Sp
[QUOTE]

That section you've quoted seems to be the posters' opinion. Further down it references a study however, that was from the 1980-90's whereas modern designs like the XTP didn't exist. Grain of salt situation.
Handguns chambered in .380 ACP are small, compact, and generally easy to carry. Unfortunately, testing has shown that they offer inadequate performance for self-defense and for law enforcement use whether on duty as a back-up weapon or for off duty carry. The terminal performance of .380 ACP JHP's is often erratic, with inadequate penetration and inconsistent expansion being common problems, while .380 ACP FMJ's offer adequate penetration, but no expansion. All of the .380 ACP JHP loads we have tested, including CorBon, Hornady, Federal, Remington, Speer, and Winchester exhibited inconsistent, unacceptable terminal performance for law enforcement back-up and off duty self-defense use due to inadequate penetration or inadequate expansion. Stick with FMJ for .380 ACP or better yet, don't use it at all. The use of .380 ACP and smaller caliber weapons is really not recommended for LE use and many savvy agencies prohibit them.


I'm well aware of who he is, but you didn't address Augen's point about the XTP. Doc Robert's post was from 2012 and true then. Now, we have a handful of .380 loads that will both penetrate 12" and expand even through 4 layers of denim. No, they don't penetrate or expand as well as 9mm, .40 or .45, but they are a lot better than the options in 2012...

I don't own a .380 so I'm certainly not defending it from a bias, but with the right load it can be a decent choice.




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 3640 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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