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[QUOTE]Originally posted by BBMW:
You might want to understand who that poster is.
[QUOTE]

I don't doubt the Dr's credentials. As for stopping power or whatever you want to call it, 3 rounds point blank into Ghandi ended his life no problem. But if my point is missed then we can move on.
 
Posts: 1311 | Location: Florida | Registered: August 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
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What you say is completely true. The flip side is that their are guns with better than .380 performance are not much bigger than .380 guns. This can be done with either j-frame-ish revolvers, or single stack subcompact 9mm autos. 9mms, in particular are much smaller than they used to be.

quote:
Originally posted by Sig2340:
I'll offer this observation.

A 9m Kurz on your belt is 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000% better than any gun you left in the safe.

If you have a need to carry a small, easily concealable handgun, carry one. Eve if its a .22LR.

As SIGfreund noted, its not until you are actually shooting that terminal ballistics become important. The unstated point he makes is that if you get to the point of squeezing the trigger, you've made a series of very poor tactical decisions, the sum of which I doubt will be overcome by anything short of a Ford F-350's brush grill.

That said, I carry a P320 Compact (when its not waiting for the "voluntary upgrade") or a P226. If I need a more powerful handgun, I have a SIG 556XI is 7.62x39 mm I can conceal under a burhka. I am, however, looking for a not-quite SOB left handed leather holster for a P230 in 9mmK simply because there are some times when I need greater concealability tha my P320 but not the degree I can achieve with my Kel-tec PF-9 (which is unpleasant as hell to shoot).


I get your point, but can you count on getting the golden hit that will put down the attacker no matter what you shoot them with, or do you want to improve the odds?

quote:
Originally posted by Augen:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BBMW:
You might want to understand who that poster is.
[QUOTE]

I don't doubt the Dr's credentials. As for stopping power or whatever you want to call it, 3 rounds point blank into Ghandi ended his life no problem. But if my point is missed then we can move on.
 
Posts: 17509 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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Preventing a bad guy from hurting us isn’t about whether the BG ultimately dies from being shot. Although I suspect it’s no longer true due to the success the gun-grabbers have had in banning cheap, low quality revolvers, at one time it was claimed that the 22 Long Rifle cartridge killed more victims in the US than any other round. That doesn’t make it my round of choice for self-defense purposes.

To reiterate my earlier comment, up through stage 7 of the “stopping” process, the power, construction, or size of the projectile doesn’t make any difference. Starting with stage 8, however, all those things do matter, and when do they matter? Right here and right now. They don’t matter a week from now, a day from now, or even 10 minutes from now. The fact that a BG dies at some point in the future or even becomes aware of his injury to the point of thinking, “Man, I’d better stop killing this guy and get to the hospital myself,” is of little value if we have suffered death or serious injury ourselves.

Most of the time any gun will work fine for self-defense, and we certainly shouldn’t select a gun for defensive purposes that we can’t operate and shoot well. Although getting to stage 8 or 9 is seldom necessary for non-LEO civilians, when it is, it is, and then the first, most important factor is being able to hit the target fast and accurately.




“... try not to shoot any friendlies ….”
— JALLEN
 
Posts: 37504 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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Another thing to consider when evaluating self-defense cartridges is the very common complaint that some bullets don’t expand reliably. Even if we ignore the practical reality that there are no test mediums that absolutely mimic the human body, think about what someone is saying when he states 1. that certain bullets don’t expand reliably, and 2. therefore we should just switch to a nonexpanding full metal jacket load. So, what we should do is rely on a bullet we know won’t expand because the other available bullets might not expand—? Am I the only one who doesn’t understand the logic behind such a position? To me it’s like saying, “My car might break down en route to my destination and I’d have to walk from that point, so I’ll just walk the entire distance,” except that in choosing a bullet that might or might not expand we don’t have to worry about the possibility of dealing with a broken-down car.




“... try not to shoot any friendlies ….”
— JALLEN
 
Posts: 37504 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I carry a Keltec P3AT at times when nothing bigger fits my clothing choices.

I figure it's not a very powerful gun, but it'll still put holes in a target.

Unless the attacker is fully dedicated to the idea of killing me, some rounds on target from anything should suffice to convince that guy he has something more important to do elsewhere.

Even though it's not very powerful, it's still a gun, which I suspect the average thug will find to be sufficient cause to go seek out an easier target, in many cases, without needing to fire a shot.


-------------
$
 
Posts: 7370 | Location: Midland county, MI, United Socialist States of Amerika | Registered: February 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That is my spot.
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Another thing to consider when evaluating self-defense cartridges is the very common complaint that some bullets don’t expand reliably. Even if we ignore the practical reality that there are no test mediums that absolutely mimic the human body, think about what someone is saying when he states 1. that certain bullets don’t expand reliably, and 2. therefore we should just switch to a nonexpanding full metal jacket load. So, what we should do is rely on a bullet we know won’t expand because the other available bullets might not expand—? Am I the only one who doesn’t understand the logic behind such a position? To me it’s like saying, “My car might break down en route to my destination and I’d have to walk from that point, so I’ll just walk the entire distance,” except that in choosing a bullet that might or might not expand we don’t have to worry about the possibility of dealing with a broken-down car.



I'm a nobody really so never said anything about it- but this has bugged me for years if for no other reason than the argument is incomplete. The point I think they forget to make many times is that an fmj might be preferable if it achieves penetration that a jhp that expands wouldn't/shouldn't/may not? For example, the Mouse gun thread seems to include valid arguments for hot fmj in .25/.32 acp . But to carry fmj only because a jhp may not expand is nonsensical to me.


****
"And those who govern ought not to be lovers of the task? For, if they are, there will be rival lovers, and they will fight."
 
Posts: 1799 | Location: Rural Tallahassee, FL | Registered: October 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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I would agree that it might make more ballistics sense to just choose FMJ for some self-defense purposes if we believe an expanding bullet might not penetrate far enough.

And then there’s the reliability issue. Some guns, especially the extra-small variety, are finicky about hollow point ammunition. It’s more important that the gun be reliable with a particular load than that the bullets expand—and especially if they expand inconsistently.




“... try not to shoot any friendlies ….”
— JALLEN
 
Posts: 37504 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am no ballistics expert, but I can tell you after investigating homicides for most of my career, not one of the victims (who died by a .380) ever told me the .380 was ineffective. All matters where you hit with it.


Escape is not always the safest path.
 
Posts: 1160 | Location: central nj | Registered: October 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That is my spot.
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quote:
Originally posted by whododat:
I am no ballistics expert, but I can tell you after investigating homicides for most of my career, not one of the victims (who died by a .380) ever told me the .380 was ineffective. All matters where you hit with it.


And what did any of the survivors say? The ones who weren't killed by the .380? Lol

Just busting chops. I read somewhere a coroner mention that 100% of his patients were killed by something. Narcotics, blunt objects, pokey things. Even .380acp.


****
"And those who govern ought not to be lovers of the task? For, if they are, there will be rival lovers, and they will fight."
 
Posts: 1799 | Location: Rural Tallahassee, FL | Registered: October 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ha, it was meant to be funny/sarcastic!


Escape is not always the safest path.
 
Posts: 1160 | Location: central nj | Registered: October 29, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
That is my spot.
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quote:
Originally posted by whododat:
Ha, it was meant to be funny/sarcastic!


Oh, good. Lol


****
"And those who govern ought not to be lovers of the task? For, if they are, there will be rival lovers, and they will fight."
 
Posts: 1799 | Location: Rural Tallahassee, FL | Registered: October 26, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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My biggest issue with .380's is mag capacity. I routinely carry a G42, but also carry two spare mags, which gives me a total 19 rounds. That's one more round than a G17 with a single factory magazine and one round in the chamber.
 
Posts: 489 | Location: Oregon | Registered: September 25, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Telling cops where to go for over 25 years
Picture of 911Boss
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A few years back I decided I wanted something I could pocket carry and ended buying an LCP shortly after they first came out. I hated the sights and the trigger and was always a little concerned that maybe .380 wasn’t “enough”.

Sure, if everything goes well .380 will do just fine. However I just couldn’t get the idea out of my mind that if everything is going well I wouldn’t be in a position to possibly be shooting someone and if things were going that bad I’d prefer to have better odds in my favor and “more” gun.

Ended up selling it for a .357 J-Frame. I felt better with 5 rounds of .357 vs. 6 or 7 of .380. Still easy pocket carry but kind of a bitch to shoot with magnum loads. Never been a big revolver fan, but it was the best choice at the time for what I wanted.

When the P938 came out I snatched one up pretty quick. Real sights, small and slim, and a semi-auto. Sold the J-Frame and haven’t looked back.

Power considerations aside, much more ammo choices and availability in 9mm and at a lower price than .380 to boot.





"Where MY free shit?!"

What part of "...Shall not be infringed" don't you understand???



 
Posts: 7740 | Location: Just stumbling through, trying to avoid a premature banjackulation of my own doing... | Registered: February 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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