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The Ice Cream Man
posted
Some of my friends and I have been working with this some/are starting to focus on it more. (Some of this could be our own biases, so looking for input.)

The sidewalks are busy, and small - so 3 assailants are about the max.

0-6 feet of distance. Just too many people to be more than that. (Problems seem to be at night. During the day, its not as crowded, but still busy.)

Our hypothesis:
1) Snagging is vitally important. The gun MUST NOT be able to snag. Whether this means a change in attire, or weapon, but it is critical.

2) Solid grip. If it has to be used, it will be within arms reach of the attacker. You have to be able to hold on to it, while struggling.

IOW, If the attacker grabs the barrel, and the citizen has the grip, the citizen has to have better control of the weapon than the attacker grabbing the barrel.

3) Reliability, while struggling. This is where I fear our biases could come out. 2 of us really like revolvers. I think a hammerless revolver makes a great deal of sense, as it cannot be put out of battery, and if fired at contact distances, it shouldn't jam from cloth, etc. However, I know they are more fragile, and less resistant to impact.

4) Able to be deployed, at 0 feet.

Again, I fear a bias here. A 38 special can be fired from weak/odd positions, without a risk of a jam. We are going to practice drawing, and firing, from appendix, with the weak hand, and see what can be less awkward. (Could be a VERY bad idea, and we will try it dry first. I THINK a snub revolver could be fired with the pinky, without much issue, which would permit a stronger draw stroke.)

5) Rounds should be affordable for practice/offer good straightline penetration.

(Nothing too abnormal. I've gotten into carrying wadcutters - but I'm also carrying J frame snubbies.) I think too much thought is given to expansion, and not enough to straight-line penetration. DG bullets, and hand gun bullets, both wound in the same fashion. When there is the power to spare, Safari hunters use softs. When there is not, they use flat-nose solids, with the largest meplat they can get.

6) Noise: Split on this. High pressure rounds may be more intimidating when going off, but could be far more disorienting while firing. Just not enough experience. (And, I don't really want it. I know a 10MM fired in a pasture, was really painful, for days, and a shotgun and 45 LC round in a building, was not particularly bad.)

7) Availability of realistic airsoft/SIRT/Dummy guns.
 
Posts: 4064 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Myrtle Beach, SC | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Ice Cream Man
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So, current thoughts are:

2 J frames, carried on the appendix?

1 appendix and one pocket? (Pocket carry definitely has some appeal when dealing with "interviews" by predators. Appendix carry may be more deployable.

Hip carry? (Able to blade away in an attack, vs. retention and control in a crowd)

There seems to a dearth of retention holsters for J frames/retention appendix holsters. Bit concerned about a gun staying in a holster, during an altercation, without it.
 
Posts: 4064 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Myrtle Beach, SC | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
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I see this as much more of a training than equipment issue. Hand to hand skills will be vital, as they're likely to have to fight to the draw. And firing from retention positions will be critical.

As someone who lives in an intensely urban environment, your three assailant max seems ludicrous. If you're dealing with multiples you could easily have a whole pack. Look at what's happened with the BLM/Antifa riots. The flip side is that if you actually get a shot off, they're likely to scatter like cockroaches when the light's turned on.

Having made that last statement, if I need to get into a gunfight in multiple assailant situation, I want a damn sight more than five shots. And I think some of the problems people associate with auto in close combat situations are overblown. I'm thinking short barrel double stack 9mm. G26, Sig P320 XCompact, M&P 2.0 Compact 3.6.
 
Posts: 19882 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Ice Cream Man
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Our current thought, with a riot, is that's why there is a PDW/full size in a bag - but not sure about that. Some friends, who've BTDT, mentioned a suppressed 22 isn't the worst idea, as the plan should to escape a riot, not combat it. But, that's also off-body carry.

(Agreed that in a riot, I'd want my 2011s, loaded with 170MM sticks, on my belt, and an AR in my hands.)

Colt pocket autos, Rohrbaugh pocket guns, hammerless J frames, and the P7, all seem very non-snagging designs. Maybe we're overly concerned about snagging... And, I think I can see why some of the old style holsters had exposed triggers...

Glocks aren't prone to snagging, but none of us are comfortable with appendix carry and a striker fired gun, without a safety. (Not saying its right, but none of us are comfortable. And, I always seem to bump the mag release.)

We just added the Krav Maga instructor to our group. We haven't started really working on strikes and retention shooting with him, yet.

We'll get some airsoft/pellet replicas to practice the retention stuff more.
 
Posts: 4064 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Myrtle Beach, SC | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Ice Cream Man
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Posts: 4064 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Myrtle Beach, SC | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
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Yeah, it kind of covers both issues. I was trying to count shots on my tablet (meaning not great audio.) It sounded like she got off 6 or seven shots before the gun jammed. But vastly to her credit, she cleared the malfunction and got the gun running. And she did it faster than anyone is likely to be able to reload a snubbie.

quote:
 
Posts: 19882 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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quote:
Originally posted by BBMW:
Yeah, it kind of covers both issues. I was trying to count shots on my tablet (meaning not great audio.) It sounded like she got off 6 or seven shots before the gun jammed. But vastly to her credit, she cleared the malfunction and got the gun running. And she did it faster than anyone is likely to be able to reload a snubbie.

quote:


I was reviewing that video with my squad and one of them said, "Damn what if there had been two guys." Yep, something to think about. From what I have read, she hit with every single round fired (11 or 14) with 4 hits being to the lungs.
 
Posts: 3153 | Location: St.Louis County MO | Registered: October 13, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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The video above isn’t a good example of what to do. From a tactics standpoint, the female deputy made too many errors. Based upon the information at hand, she got out of the car behind the power curve. She missed more than she hit, and she allowed the attacker to close that reactionary gap. She’s lucky to be alive.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 34426 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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A poorly-recognized fact about revolvers is that they can be disabled if an attacker grabs them just as an autoloading pistol can be. A strong grip on the cylinder can prevent the user from pulling the trigger, and if that happens, it’s not possible to get off even one more shot, unlike the pistol whose slide is locked.

There is nothing magical about the reliability of a revolver. And as was pointed out to me decades ago when I was convinced that they were more reliable than autoloading pistols, once a malfunction occurs with a revolver, it’s usually a true jam that can’t be cleared with a simple tap, rack. Quality pistols with quality ammunition are extremely reliable these days.

As for the woman deputy, what do we know about how many times she hit the attacker? I read here that every shot hit or that she missed more often than she hit. Where is that information? (It isn’t apparent from the video I saw.) (And apologies if that’s not an appropriate question to ask.)




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 42580 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of vthoky
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quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
behind the power curve.


I apologize for the thread drift, but I have to ask. I don't think I know what that phrase means in this context. More info, please?




God bless America.
 
Posts: 10164 | Location: Hokie Nation! | Registered: July 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Casuistic Thinker and Daoist
Picture of 9mmepiphany
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quote:
Originally posted by Aglifter:
0-6 feet of distance.

At that range you should even be thinking about trying to draw a gun...that's the intended lesson of the Tueller drill. That is really a zone where you should be thinking about going to a blade, if not immediately to hand-to-hand.

Having said that, I'll address your questions/points of concern

quote:
2) Solid grip. If it has to be used, it will be within arms reach of the attacker. You have to be able to hold on to it, while struggling.

IOW, If the attacker grabs the barrel, and the citizen has the grip, the citizen has to have better control of the weapon than the attacker grabbing the barrel.[quote]
If your attacker is able tto grab the barrel/slide of your pistol, he will have better leverage that you.

[quote]3) Reliability, while struggling. This is where I fear our biases could come out. 2 of us really like revolvers. I think a hammerless revolver makes a great deal of sense, as it cannot be put out of battery, and if fired at contact distances, it shouldn't jam from cloth, etc.

That is a bias showing.

You're right that it can't be put out of battery, but grabbing the cylinder would lock up a revolver to the point where you can't even get off the first shot...which you could with a pistol

Don't take this as a condemnation of revolvers. I carried a S&W 642 for years as a BUG on my ankle before I replaced it with a Kahr CW9. If i went back to a revolver, I'd first look to a Ruger LCR

quote:
4) Able to be deployed, at 0 feet.

Again, I fear a bias here. A 38 special can be fired from weak/odd positions, without a risk of a jam. We are going to practice drawing, and firing, from appendix, with the weak hand, and see what can be less awkward. (Could be a VERY bad idea, and we will try it dry first. I THINK a snub revolver could be fired with the pinky, without much issue, which would permit a stronger draw stroke.)

The best gun I ever handled for that CQB was the Semmerling LM-4...but they have gotten pricey. The next best was the High Standard Derringer...quite a bit less spendy

quote:
5) Rounds should be affordable for practice/offer good straightline penetration.

(Nothing too abnormal. I've gotten into carrying wadcutters - but I'm also carrying J frame snubbies.) I think too much thought is given to expansion, and not enough to straight-line penetration. DG bullets, and hand gun bullets, both wound in the same fashion. When there is the power to spare, Safari hunters use softs. When there is not, they use flat-nose solids, with the largest meplat they can get.

You can't compare rifle bullets with handgun ones,the physics are too different...mostly velocity.

quote:
6) Noise: Split on this. High pressure rounds may be more intimidating when going off, but could be far more disorienting while firing. Just not enough experience. (And, I don't really want it. I know a 10MM fired in a pasture, was really painful, for days, and a shotgun and 45 LC round in a building, was not particularly bad.)

Intimidation should be the least of your concerns...I remember a time when it was thought that the most intimidating handgun was a chrome plated Colt Commander...after the first shot goes off, no one will care how loud it is.

Prove to yourself how disorienting it is by shooting through an open barrel at the range




No, Daoism isn't a religion



 
Posts: 13521 | Location: northern california | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
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One does have to be ready to go hands-on, to block/parry/dodge physical attack, to keep one’s auto in-battery, and to free-up the cylinder of one’s revolver.

A short barrel provides less real estate for an opponent to grab. A relatively long barrel might, OTOH, allow one to have a hand on each end of the weapon, if one acts quickly enough, and therefore have more physical leverage than the opponent.

One learns much in force-on-force training, with a good instructor, using “blue” inert guns.


Have Colts, will travel
 
Posts: 3058 | Location: SE Texas | Registered: April 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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As for auto-versus-revolver, well, I can live with either, or both, just fine. Due to the pandemic situation, all of my shooting training has been “dry,” so my autos have been relegated to being museum pieces, as my long-stroke DA skill is much less perishable than my skills with 1911 or Glock triggers, and, of course, dry-firing a DA revolver does not require that the slide be used to reset the trigger/hammer/striker. I do not foresee live-firing my Glocks or 1911s before some time next year. (My wife, and another adult in our household, have medical conditions that would make a COVID infection a likely death sentence, so we stay away from publicly-accessible buildings, unless absolutely necessary.)

After retiring from policin’, in 2018, I was tending to gravitate to DA revolvers, anyway. Nothing fits my hands better than a GP100, with K-/L-Frames, Security/Service/Speed Sixes, and the SP101 not being far behind.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Rexster,


Have Colts, will travel
 
Posts: 3058 | Location: SE Texas | Registered: April 08, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
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I don't have any original research to offer, so I look at what people who are paid to figure out this type of stuff do. They may have their own biases and ulterior motives, but if enough of them do the same thing, likely it because it's been well thought out.

In this vein, I'll point out that essentially the entirety of the law enforcement community has gone to autoloaders as primary handguns. There are still probably a fair percentage of snubbies used as BUGs, but I bet that's a lot smaller than it used to be and continues to shrink. This includes urban PDs, that would have all the issues to deal with that Aglifter brought up, especially for plain close / undercover. So I just can't believe a revolver is the ultimate defensive tool in this environment, if such a huge percentage professional, who's job it is to expose themselves to these situations are carrying autos.
 
Posts: 19882 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Ice Cream Man
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If I could open carry a full size auto, in a retention holster, I’d agree that would be an excellent way to carry.
 
Posts: 4064 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Myrtle Beach, SC | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Ice Cream Man
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Maybe. Im not sure there’s that much carry over between police carry and private citizen.
 
Posts: 4064 | Location: Republic of Ice Cream, Myrtle Beach, SC | Registered: May 24, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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I’m curious to why you think that?




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 34426 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by vthoky:
quote:
Originally posted by jljones:
behind the power curve.


I apologize for the thread drift, but I have to ask. I don't think I know what that phrase means in this context. More info, please?


I’m sorry I just saw this. “Behind the power curve” is an old aviation term that goes something like when you are reducing power and gliding downward (like on approach to land) but you cut the power back too far that the rate of descent becomes greater than the power you can rapidly put back on to gain altitude.

Maybe a pilot can straighten out my coarse definition if I git it wrong.




www.opspectraining.com

"It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it works out for them"



 
Posts: 34426 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of vthoky
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^^^^

Thank you. I've got a better handle on the phrase now...

To put that back in context of the video, what I think you're saying is that the deputy would have been better off to have been out of the car before the attacker got that close. By the time she got out, she could only move backward -- there was no opportunity for her to advance on him.

Am I thinking about this correctly?




God bless America.
 
Posts: 10164 | Location: Hokie Nation! | Registered: July 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
fugitive from reality
Picture of SgtGold
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Aglifter:
Some of my friends and I have been working with this some/are starting to focus on it more. (Some of this could be our own biases, so looking for input.)

The sidewalks are busy, and small - so 3 assailants are about the max.

0-6 feet of distance. Just too many people to be more than that. (Problems seem to be at night. During the day, its not as crowded, but still busy.)

These are self serving assumptions that introduce bias into your choices. Don't assume how many perps or from what direction an attack will materialize.

Our hypothesis:
1) Snagging is vitally important. The gun MUST NOT be able to snag. Whether this means a change in attire, or weapon, but it is critical.

You've already introduced another bias. Nothing is 100% snag proof.

2) Solid grip. If it has to be used, it will be within arms reach of the attacker. You have to be able to hold on to it, while struggling.

There is no way to quantify this. I can get a solid grip on every handgun I own.

IOW, If the attacker grabs the barrel, and the citizen has the grip, the citizen has to have better control of the weapon than the attacker grabbing the barrel.

Again, there is no way to quantify this. A shorter barrel will leave less to grab, but any amount of exposed gun is going to offer pretty good leverage if someone grabs it.

3) Reliability, while struggling. This is where I fear our biases could come out. 2 of us really like revolvers. I think a hammerless revolver makes a great deal of sense, as it cannot be put out of battery, and if fired at contact distances, it shouldn't jam from cloth, etc. However, I know they are more fragile, and less resistant to impact.

4) Able to be deployed, at 0 feet.

The only advantage a revolver has is the ability to be fired while in contact with the target. A semi can be fired at zero distance, just not while in contact to any great extent.

Again, I fear a bias here. A 38 special can be fired from weak/odd positions, without a risk of a jam. We are going to practice drawing, and firing, from appendix, with the weak hand, and see what can be less awkward. (Could be a VERY bad idea, and we will try it dry first. I THINK a snub revolver could be fired with the pinky, without much issue, which would permit a stronger draw stroke.)

I'm not even sure where to go with this. It sounds like you're going to have enough to deal with if you need to use deadly force during a grapple, so introducing unorthodox draw strokes might not be a good idea.

5) Rounds should be affordable for practice/offer good straightline penetration.

Other than ballistic performance cost should never be a factor. How much is your life worth?

(Nothing too abnormal. I've gotten into carrying wadcutters - but I'm also carrying J frame snubbies.) I think too much thought is given to expansion, and not enough to straight-line penetration. DG bullets, and hand gun bullets, both wound in the same fashion. When there is the power to spare, Safari hunters use softs. When there is not, they use flat-nose solids, with the largest meplat they can get.

Bear in mind that wadcutters are the hardest round to load using either speed loaders or moon clips. I shoot a revolver in bullseye and even under no stress I sometimes have trouble getting the wheel gun loaded quickly enough. Also, it's just not possible to top off a revolver the way you can tactically reload a semi.

6) Noise: Split on this. High pressure rounds may be more intimidating when going off, but could be far more disorienting while firing. Just not enough experience. (And, I don't really want it. I know a 10MM fired in a pasture, was really painful, for days, and a shotgun and 45 LC round in a building, was not particularly bad.)

I know several LEO's who have used deadly force. None of them heard the gunshot. I've used multiple calibers with no hearing protection. Other than 22lr and 38 wadcutters they are all LOUD.

7) Availability of realistic airsoft/SIRT/Dummy guns.

Not a bad idea.



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