quote:

For example, it's very common to see the failure of OWB Kydex holsters and the inefficiency of pocket carry.

I have to disagree with you on the pocket carry. most op instructors do carry a small j-Frame in a weakside pocket or in an ankle holster as a backup. I don't see that an inefficiency at all.

As for the failure of kydex OWB holsters, I can only assume you are referring to that goffy video where one hillbilly runs up behind another hillbilly, and twists and wrenches the holster off.

What the hell does that have to do with us? We carry concealed with open top holsters.

quote:

Originally posted by dnittler:

quote:

For example, it's very common to see the failure of OWB Kydex holsters and the inefficiency of pocket carry.

I have to disagree with you on the pocket carry. most op instructors do carry a small j-Frame in a weakside pocket or in an ankle holster as a backup. I don't see that an inefficiency at all.

As for the failure of kydex OWB holsters, I can only assume you are referring to that goffy video where one hillbilly runs up behind another hillbilly, and twists and wrenches the holster off.

What the hell does that have to do with us? We carry concealed with open top holsters.

Was that even an OWB holster? I thought it was a paddle model... which doesn't necessarily mean kydex.

I agree with the comments on training a complete package though. I honestly don't think that most people have a healthy understanding of what they're likely to be facing when "it" happens.

quote:

Originally posted by dnittler:

quote:

For example, it's very common to see the failure of OWB Kydex holsters and the inefficiency of pocket carry.

I have to disagree with you on the pocket carry. most op instructors do carry a small j-Frame in a weakside pocket or in an ankle holster as a backup. I don't see that an inefficiency at all.

As for the failure of kydex OWB holsters, I can only assume you are referring to that goffy video where one hillbilly runs up behind another hillbilly, and twists and wrenches the holster off.

What the hell does that have to do with us? We carry concealed with open top holsters.

Keep in mind that I was specifically referring to pocket carry as a PRIMARY.
Backup gun is a slightly different scenario.
Now, just because person "A" carries that way, doesn't make it the best way....
You can feel free to disagree with me as to the inefficiencies of pocket carry all you want, but the fact remains that unless or until you step up and try it, you are only guessing.

There have been more than enough good shooters and generally good martial artists that changed their tune about pocket carrying their primary after having a firsthand opportunity to put it to the test....
You might be surprised at what you find when you do so as well!

Re: OWB Kydex
Fisrt of all, I'm not sure I'd refer to the people in a video as "hillbillies" if i didn't know who they were...they just may well be highly skilled and respected instuctors...
Now, having seen that particular video, I believe the "holster" in question is a cheap-o Fobus plastic holster....not high quality Kydex.

On the other hand, Kydex holsters...good ones from top quality makers, often have shown to fall short in force on force training particularly in "grab", "retention", and "grappling" scenarios....not to mention a simple fall to the ground.
They can fail in ways that either give up retention of the gun altogether or weaken it to a questionable point.
On the other hand, Leather OWB holsters generally tend to have a little more 'give' to them.
This is certainly not to say that EVERY OWB Kydex will fail EVERY TIME, this is more in order to consider that there are: "poor options","better options", and "best options".
Some of those options have a common theme and that is just another thing borne out in training.

You asked: What the hell does that have to do with us? We carry concealed with open top holsters.

I'm of the opinion that carrying concealed is a much better tactic than carrying openly, no question.
But, can you unequivocally say that you will never be forced into a scenario where any of the physical encounters I mentioned above will happen?
Indeed, with your training and experience, either on the street or in force-on-force classes, can you tell us how you know?

Now, I'm no expert nor do I pretend to have all the answers but I can tell you this:
No matter how you prepare or predetermine that you will handle any given encounter, things simply do not always go as you plan...
Training scenarios particularly where firearms are introduced often wind up with close quarters physical involvement, no matter how well intentioned we are on avoiding exactly that.
To plan for the "best" case scenario doesn't really do much for preparedness at all.
However, preparing for a "worst" or less than ideal scenario puts us at a greater advantage.

Speaking strictly from the standpoint of weapon retention, you can pretty much rank holster selection like this: ("1" being the best,"4" being the worst)
1.IWB Leather
2.IWB Kydex
3.OWB Leather
4.OWB Kydex

With IWB carry, you have an immediate advantage of only having one access point to the gun.(hopefully yours)
With OWB carry, an adversary can control your weapon from two points...grip (or your hand) and muzzle...especially with "slide" type holsters.

These are just some things to think about....

-Situational awareness is something I learned in my youth and hone on a daily basis. IMO knowing a situation may be developing is the first step to protecting me and mine and will provide me with options instead of reactions. It also helps me to remain calm.

-Dispute resolution training so that I do not become or remain the target of aggression.

-Sufficient Aikido to pretty much eliminate unnecessary hand to hand as rapidly as possible without breaking bones in my preferred gun hand.

-Drawing and beading up with a dry fire is practiced regularly.

-I practice frequently with my weapon(s) on paper targets. Growing up I shot massive quantities of pigeons/rats with pistol birdshot loads to cut down the numbers on a friend’s farm. Priceless moving target training.

-Home defense plan has been established. Step by step procedure is ready to go.

I'm sure I could do more but at this time these are my training technique/skills. I've never been shot at but have deescalated a few rapidly deteriorating situations. IMO remaining calm is pivotal...either they will think you’re a badazz or crazy. Either one does not bode well for most troublemakers. Much easier to find another target.

Bummer - I just typed about a thousand word response that was really good... really! The site hiccuped, and poof - gone!

No way am I re-typing it.

To summarize I carry a j-frame .357 in my pocket more than 1/2 the time, and I believe I have a good understanding of what works and what doesn't.

I'm not saying it's ideal by any means, but it's not useless. Readiness is big continuum, and lots of factors go into what and how one carries. The law of diminishing returns applies big time here - a j-frame .357 in the pocket might get you out of 90% of situations, and training every single day and carrying in an "ideal" manner will only get you to 98% (obviously both made up numbers, but the point holds). Not everyone is going to reach the same conclusions when they do the calculus for themselves.

The main point of the OP, I think, is that too many people don't CONSIDER or even UNDERSTAND the pros & cons, and I wholeheartedly agree with that.

In short, I guess my answer is NO, I haven't tested it. But I don't think it's rocket science to see where pocket carry has its limitations - most of the time, I live with them.

quote:

Originally posted by FranklyTodd:
I don't think it's rocket science to see where pocket carry has its limitations - most of the time, I live with them.

Having seen firsthand how utterly unsuccessful that method is during a physical encounter, it's just not something I can personally live with.
If you are willing to, that's your decision of course but at least, as you say, you are informed.....meaning: you know better.

It seems we all have to make some concessions with our choices. I try to go out of my way to limit them as much as possible.
YMMV

Frankly Frankly Todd, I'm not sure I agree with your assement of the "law of diminishing returns", at least to the point that I wouldn't say it applies "big time here".
Having tried it, I would weight it a lot more than 8%.
If I really believed this particular issue had that narrow of margin, I'm not sure it would be enough to concern me.

Certainly it applies more in some situations than others....
again YMMV

I don't want to get into any kind of argument here - especially since I've never done force-on-force armed training.

However, unless you mean you've tried it meaning you've been attacked on the street numerous times and defended yourself, you haven't "tried" it.

I don't care how realistic they try to make force-on-force, it's a contrived, controlled simulation.

My hand-to-hand experience is fairly extensive but I'm old and my skills have totally diminished. I still think if I'm the BG and I can get to where I can lay my hands on you and you still haven't drawn your weapon, you are going to have a hard time drawing it no matter where you keep it. I'm going to be mercilessly and relentlessly attacking your eyes, throat, and groin. If you direct your attention to drawing, I would think I could put you out with an elbow or blind you with an eye poke.

I'm not bragging, I don't consider myself good at all. The reverse is true, if I let a BG get to where we can touch (so I've already made huge mistakes), I'm not going to go for my weapon. We are hand-to-hand all the way until I have plenty of time to draw from wherever I need to (or I lose). I think sometimes having a weapon that NEVER gets deployed would be better than you dragging one into a hand-to-hand skirmish where it would be up for grabs. Let's face it, if you screw up to the point where BG is laying hands on you, he could have easily already killed you, had that been his attention.

Again, this is not to say pocket carry is great, there are many superior methods from a purely tactical standpoint, but don't let a little FoF make you feel street-invincible. I've done a lot of knife and rubber-gun heavy-contact training, but I don't think for a second it was anything other than a crude simulation.

I don't mean to keep saying this, but I don't "disagree" with you at all - however, I think having done FoF and carrying IWB gives you a smaller advantage than you might think.

quote:

Originally posted by FranklyTodd:
I don't want to get into any kind of argument here - especially since I've never done force-on-force armed training.

However, unless you mean you've tried it meaning you've been attacked on the street numerous times and defended yourself, you haven't "tried" it.

I don't care how realistic they try to make force-on-force, it's a contrived, controlled simulation.

My hand-to-hand experience is fairly extensive but I'm old and my skills have totally diminished. I still think if I'm the BG and I can get to where I can lay my hands on you and you still haven't drawn your weapon, you are going to have a hard time drawing it no matter where you keep it. I'm going to be mercilessly and relentlessly attacking your eyes, throat, and groin. If you direct your attention to drawing, I would think I could put you out with an elbow or blind you with an eye poke.

I'm not bragging, I don't consider myself good at all. The reverse is true, if I let a BG get to where we can touch (so I've already made huge mistakes), I'm not going to go for my weapon. We are hand-to-hand all the way until I have plenty of time to draw from wherever I need to (or I lose). I think sometimes having a weapon that NEVER gets deployed would be better than you dragging one into a hand-to-hand skirmish where it would be up for grabs. Let's face it, if you screw up to the point where BG is laying hands on you, he could have easily already killed you, had that been his attention.

Again, this is not to say pocket carry is great, there are many superior methods from a purely tactical standpoint, but don't let a little FoF make you feel street-invincible. I've done a lot of knife and rubber-gun heavy-contact training, but I don't think for a second it was anything other than a crude simulation.

I don't mean to keep saying this, but I don't "disagree" with you at all - however, I think having done FoF and carrying IWB gives you a smaller advantage than you might think.

I just think you are being far too dismissive of it's value as a training tool.
First of all, I would never suggest that having "X" type of training makes you invincible.
Generally we find those types of arguments from people who have not particpated in any capacity or who want to blindly justify/defend their own method
Obviously you fit one of those.

You do make some good points however which I *tried* to address but I accidentally deleted my post and don't have time to re-write it right now...

If I sounded dismissive, I did not mean to.

I have no doubt FoF is the best simulation available, and immeasurably better than punching holes in a paper target.

I know you didn't say anything like this, but many say, for example, pocket carrying is "useless" (or carrying without 1 in the chamber is like carrying a paperweight, or anything less than a .45 is ineffective). Those are just dumb statements.

I was just trying to point out, while agreeing with your (I think) main point, that many don't really know or understand what the pros/cons/limitations that apply to their choices, that even those that know the pros and cons don't always agree on what's right for them.

Just like training to be a blackbelt in jiu-jitsu might be the best way to master unarmed combat, the more FoF training may be the way to master handgun combat.

However, just because you don't do either, doesn't make you wrong, or completely unable to defend oneself (with hands or handguns).

I sound like a broken record, but everything you've said I agree with. I'm 40 with 3 kids blah, blah, blah, and I don't have time or money for training classes right now. I'm extremely realistic about my chances of needing my weapon, the pros and cons of both my weapon choices and carry methods.

I only sought to offer a different perspective from yours - you seem gung ho on FoF training, and I think it's great, just like I admire black-belts in some martial arts.

For me, I let my dedicated training lapse in boxing and martial arts after getting hurt and having kids. Similarly, I've not taken any formal firearms training since my req'd CCW 12hr. class. Also as I said, I often carry a j-frame or LCP in my pocket.

You are doing what you think is best, and I'm balancing my obligations and doing the best I can right now with a reasonable amount of practice on my own.

I think we are both doing the right thing for ourselves. I only bristle at being judged at not doing enough (or being ignorant about the deliberate choices I've made), just like you were irritated when you perceived that I was saying you were doing too much or FoF was useless.

Anyway, sorry for the long-winded post. One day with a free weekend I will happily take a FoF class - it sounds like a blast!

Best to you,
FT

"I was just trying to point out, while agreeing with your (I think) main point, that many don't really know or understand what the pros/cons/limitations that apply to their choices......"

Yeah, that was my main point.
Everything else was just my attempt to illustrate that.

People can take all the advice they want from people they trust...and that's good, but ultimately it is up to the individual to put it to the test if they want to remove all doubt.
Nothing like firsthand experience

While I've never had to put my gear to the ultimate test in an actual situation, ( and I truly hope to never have to do so ) the equipment I do have is quality and durable, and I do practice as often as I can with it.

The most I've done is some IDPA/IPSC, FoF training with simunitions, alternate draw/shooting positions, moving/distant targets, low-light shooting, and having been hit with tasers numerous times to simulate being shot and continuing the fight.

I've also done training which involved being physically attacked by several other individuals for 30 to 40 seconds with training 'Nerf' gear, ( plastic batons/ cushioned shields, etc ) to get the adrenalin up, then go on to a shooting engagement to see how much a persons fine motor skills are degraded when the adrenalin kicks in from fight or flight response.

Most of this training was done around ten years ago, and I haven't made the time to retake and refresh it, however, this is one of my priorities.

At a basic level, I feel generally confident in my abilities and carry gear, though there are several areas that I have little to no experience in, such as weapon retention, and knife/counter knife, etc, that I need training in.

Training never really ends, it just is.

Right.
Ideally we would have a regular monthly or bi-monthly training exercise but I know that isn't realistic for most people.....especially considering the cost.
One of our local groups offered a monthly "fight training club" for $20 which is about the same as a match fee. Basically charging enough to cover materials such as Simunitions and to cover rental of properties...convenience stores, warehouses, etc.

Another thing you can do is form your own small group to train with regularly.
This is probably the best way for the average person to be able to schedule/afford it. After everyone chips in to buy equipment, the cost is relatively low since you are only buying Simunitions and other 'consumables'. However, in order for that to be effective everyone involved needs to have a firm basis from which to work, which means getting involved and participating with a quality accredited school/instructors. Doing so on a regular basis would be even better.

Then you can get together on the weekends and beat the snot outta' each other and break each other's gear.

quote:

Originally posted by J.P.:
Another thing you can do is form your own small group to train with regularly.

Hey now, don't you think that could be a bit risky? I mean, somebody could take that as the formation of a militia, or something else equally 'sinister'.

quote:

However, in order for that to be effective everyone involved needs to have a firm basis from which to work, which means getting involved and participating with a quality accredited school/instructors.

Agreed.

This would be difficult, though, I feel. Finding enough like-minded folks, all with the same general training/experience background. It's a very good idea though.

Just want to thank the members here for their professionalism in this thread.
I posted the same thread on another board and well.....after veering off course, it crashed.

thanks guys!

This message has been edited. Last edited by: J.P.,

quote:

Originally posted by J.P.:
Just want to thank the members here for their professionalism in this thread.
I posted the same thread over at [somewhere else] and well.....after veering off course, it crashed.

Kinda funny. My primary carry is a G26. I'm not a member of that other forum. And this thread hasn't crashed for me -- I think it's a good thread.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Arty,

quote:

Originally posted by Arty:

quote:

Originally posted by J.P.:
Just want to thank the members here for their professionalism in this thread.
I posted the same thread over at [somewhere else] and well.....after veering off course, it crashed.

Kinda funny. My primary carry is a G26. I'm not a member of that other forum. And this thread hasn't crashed for me -- I think it's a good thread.

Note to J.P., I don't think the admins appreciate complaints about other forums on this forum. Something to keep in mind.

Yeah, I thought about that after I posted so maybe I'll edit it.
I was really just trying to give props to y'all.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: J.P.,

A good way that I have found to train while saving for formal training is to get an airsoft replica of your gun. Here is what a friend of mine and I have done. As stated we each got an airsoft replica that fit in our carry rig, we also got a couple of paintball masks (they sell airsoft masks but the paintball ones we found didn't allow the shots through and covered some of the back of the head). The we went through some drills drawing and firing on each other, weapon retention ect. these little plastic bb's give you some real feedback the guns we have shoot at around 350fps so they sting quite a bit.

We do Simunitions training in our "Shoot House" at least once a month, so my carry gear gets quite a workout. We do runs both in daylight and in the dark - the latter with and without NODs. Actually, I learned A LOT about gear selection and placement the first time we ran through there in full tactical kit - I've subsequently made some dramatic changes.

My plain clothes kit hasn't changed much, however. My only concern is I've switched to carrying my P250 as a daily carry gun; and there's no Sims kit for it yet, so I have to keep shooting our converted Glocks.

Regards,

Kevin

quote:

Originally posted by kjdoski:
We do Simunitions training in our "Shoot House" at least once a month, so my carry gear gets quite a workout. We do runs both in daylight and in the dark - the latter with and without NODs. Actually, I learned A LOT about gear selection and placement the first time we ran through there in full tactical kit - I've subsequently made some dramatic changes.

My plain clothes kit hasn't changed much, however. My only concern is I've switched to carrying my P250 as a daily carry gun; and there's no Sims kit for it yet, so I have to keep shooting our converted Glocks.

Regards,

Kevin

Dude, you're not looking to adopt a middle aged man, are you?

Yes, I have.