How many people here have tested their tactics and gear in a live situation?
Based on the number of responses on the issue where people try to justify their purchases, I'm willing to bet not many....

People who carry guns owe it to everyone including themselves to be as proficient as they can be with their weapons, I think.
At least this is something I believe.
Unfortunately there are a lot of folks who would much rather purchase the latest greatest new 'toy' than actually invest in themselves.
Heck, a lot of people don't even maintain basic fitness let alone put time in to prepare for the actual fight.
People are certainly welcome to prioritize as they see fit, but today's criminals aren't getting any weaker or dumber.
In fact, quite ther opposite is true!

Among the things seen in force-on-force training is the failure of carry gear and methods.
A lot of the things that people think will work, often just don't bear out in training and the weaknesses in gear/methodology/tactics are exposed.
For example, it's very common to see the failure of OWB Kydex holsters and the inefficiency of pocket carry.

While a lot of the time you hear "the key in a gunfight is having a gun", I think more appropriately the key is: "Operative word in gunfight is 'fight'"

So the question I pose here in the "Methods/Issues" section is:
Have you thoroughly tested your carry gear/method?
Take an honest look at the situation and tell yourself whether you could go into a fight with 100% confidence in your gear/method.
Certainly don't base this off of a 'gut' feeling, but rather on your own hands-on experience.
A lot of the time we must make compromises in our selection for many reasons...but I think it's best to minimize those as much as possible with great forethought put into the selection process.
What say ye?

I admit I am definitely not as proficient as I need to be with my carry set up. And, I don't practice nearly enough. I want to take some training in the near future when time and money allow. I can shoot well, and do some drills, but am I good enough to make sure things are like second nature if the SHTF? Honestly, No.

It is refreshing to see people admit this because it indicates awareness and increases the probability that you will do something about it.

In the world of men with firearms, it's not often you will see too many people openly admit this. In fact, I'd wager many simply do not even recognize their own deficiencies.
Ego is one of the biggest hinderances to learning and moving forward, and as soon as you can put that in check, you are better off, IMO.

Just looking through the various gunboards, it's obviously not a popular topic.

I don't have any agenda or financial ties to any of the training schools available, just trying to introduce awareness about a subject that I feel is important.

Before I can answer, I must ask a question.

What do you consider "testing in a live situation"?

I've taken classes, shot courses, and done numerous draw shoot drills. I've also done full contact martial arts at a younger time in my life. None of this ever came close to the adrenaline dump I would anticipate in a life or death situation.

quote:

Originally posted by Otto Pilot:
Before I can answer, I must ask a question.

What do you consider "testing in a live situation"?

I've taken classes, shot courses, and done numerous draw shoot drills. I've also done full contact martial arts at a younger time in my life. None of this ever came close to the adrenaline dump I would anticipate in a life or death situation.

Force-on force training for example.
Full contact training utilizing hand-to-hand, trainer blades, and simunition (or similar).
Weapon retention drills, grappling, etc.

Basically training that does not include merely standing and shooting at stationary paper targets.

Of course to most people it doesn't have the same physiological effect but it's a practical way to try out your gear under stress.

Through conditioning, you can minimize the effects adrenaline has during a live event.
If you've competed in martial arts, you are probably aware of this.
Notice I didn't say 'eliminate' or even suggest it. Anyone who has a praticular level of conditioning in this area knows that the negative effects such as tunnel vision, loss of breath control, can be minimized.

James Yeager, is that you?

I've gone through the "bolting more shit on my rifle makes me better" stage, which is usually accompanied with the "new is better" stage.

I've been through two classes this year and hope to attend two more. No force-on-force yet, but I'm hoping one of the big schools will make it into Tucson next year.

Well, I've done some of that, though not as much as I might like.

The is something really exciting about somebody in a "red man" suit charging you with a sim knife. Especially in what we shall call "tight quarters".

Yes, I have.

Yup. All of our agency's instructors must shoot a surprise scenario (we know the day, don't know what's coming) once a month. This last time, it was daily carry method. Since my daily carry method is ankle with spare magazine in the pocket, I was out there in courtroom clothes (agency's lawyer) doing that for a few hundred rounds. I was faster than I thought I'd be to start, but was amazed at how much faster I got.

I try to do draw and fire drills every time I shoot, but I can't afford to practice nearly as much as I would like.

Where does one get force on force training, and how much does something like that cost for a beginner or basic course?

quote:

Originally posted by Bear Smash:
Where does one get force on force training, and how much does something like that cost for a beginner or basic course?

Suarez Intl and Tactical Response run $400

yes I've trained as you've described. I've also been tested under fire, and presented and fired my weapon in self defense of life.

I could always use more training though.

I generally practice drawing and firing drills everytime I shoot.

Everytime I use the bathroom, I practice my draw from different positions/clothes (work/home...NOT public).

I have even gone as far as practicing the draw/presentation laying down/seated/squatting. I find it incredibly important to learn muscle-memory for any/all occasions.

I go to the range once a week when permitted.

quote:

Originally posted by TuesdayClub:
Everytime I use the bathroom, I practice my draw from different positions/clothes (work/home...NOT public).

I have even gone as far as practicing the draw/presentation laying down/seated/squatting. I find it incredibly important to learn muscle-memory for any/all occasions.

I go to the range once a week when permitted.

I'm sure you're serious, but it reads like you're "tactically" relieving yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by Dan Shapiro:

quote:

Originally posted by Bear Smash:
Where does one get force on force training, and how much does something like that cost for a beginner or basic course?

Suarez Intl and Tactical Response run $400

In addition to those...
http://www.tdsatulsa.com
http://www.thepraesidiumgroup.com
http://www.usshootingacademy.com
http://www.rangemaster.com
I *think* Southnarc should have schedules posted there.

From the ECQ Reverse Edge Methods series:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEgXk29TV0M
Just to give the kiddies some idea...
Here:http://www.shivworks.com/tutorials.asp
is a shcedule listing and there are a few Photographic Scenario Progressions at the bottom of the page as well.


Also great recommended reading at: www.totalprotectioninteractive.com
You have to be registered to read here and it sometimes takes a while to get registered but it's worth the wait.
Bear in mind, most subjects have been well covered so this is one of those "read more,post less" type boards.
Lots of great PSPs (photo sets)!

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:
yes I've trained as you've described. I've also been tested under fire, and presented and fired my weapon in self defense of life.

I could always use more training though.

I generally practice drawing and firing drills everytime I shoot.

Good deal.
No matter how advanced our skill level, we can always use more training.
And as importantly, keeping your training current!

quote:

Originally posted by TuesdayClub:
Everytime I use the bathroom, I practice my draw from different positions/clothes

Please tell me that you clear the weapon and put ammo in a seperate location first.

This sounds just like the officer practicing his presentation in front of a mirro recently and ended in a tradgedy (he killed his young wife with an ND).

Stay safe, bro.


**************************************

As for my training, it is fairly limited. I frequent IDPA and IPSC matches. Spend a fair amount on the range doing live fire draw, move shoot drills.

I have walked my house and considered safe zones of fire for both my family and neighbors.

I have read extensively on the subject and studied Jeff Cooper, Clint Smith and Mas Ayoob on the subject.

Given the fact that my wife has epilepsy and we have young children going out of town to Gunsite, Thunder Ranch or Blackwater for a week or a weekend isn't possible for me right now.

I have confidence that I can engage a live threat. Granted, I do not have as much training as the local LEOs, but as far as physical gun handling skills though, I outshoot most of the local Sheriff's deputy in our local IDPA matches. Granted it's a game, but it is gun handling.

I will give you this, they can spray and pray rounds from a retention position (unaimed, tucked-in, one-handed) faster than I, and he can can actually register some hits from 3 yards like that. Pretty impressive. I know that sounds easy, but try it (slowly, with someone who knows what to do and how to teach you), it is harder than it seems.

If you end up trying it on your own, just be sure to keep you support hand well clear. Some will hold the suport hand overhear to keep it safe, and others will stick it in a pocket to keep it out of harms way. Just don't sweep yourself with the muzzle.

quote:

Originally posted by J.P.:
...While a lot of the time you hear "the key in a gunfight is having a gun", I think more appropriately the key is: "Operative word in gunfight is 'fight'"

So the question I pose here in the "Methods/Issues" section is:
Have you thoroughly tested your carry gear/method?
Take an honest look at the situation and tell yourself whether you could go into a fight with 100% confidence in your gear/method.
...

I think you're absolutely right, and any day now, I'm going to start getting some exercise!

quote:

it's very common to see the failure of OWB Kydex holsters

Can you extrapulate on this comment? Seriously, I'm curious what kinds of failures you're referring to; hardware or... user?

Keeping fit, both physically and mentally are important aspects of surviving any confrontation, and in my opinion can help you avoid it in the first place. I spend around 9 hours per week in the Dojo learning and teaching, without it I become a grumpy gus. It has been my experience that those without any open handed training become defensively fearful much easier, and even though they have the same ability to retreat as those with training, they have a higher likelihood of being involved in a shoot scenario. As a firearms trainer I have seen this happen in force on force training with LEO's so often it is almost predictable. When faced with shoot /no shoot or force escalation scenarios where officers must interpret a threat and choose the correct level of force and then be able to transition from one level to the other, those with open hand skill and confidence ALWAYS do better than those without.

Shooting skill of all kinds are a must if you carry a gun. Week hand, one handed, moving and shooting, shooting from your back, side or from under a dumpster. You need to be able to engage from anywhere and to do that you need to get to your gun from anywhere. It is all important stuff to practice on a regular basis and if you can get force on force time DO IT! I have stood in the fatal funnel of a door way holding a gun while two LEO's shot at me and never registered a hit, thats what force on force will show you.
As Clint Smith sayes: "there may be 5 ways to clear a stair well, but they all suck when there is someone at the top with a gun, this much I know about tactics".

I am no expert, and hope to never use the things I have learned thus far. But IF need to I hope to have the skills to do the deed.

Great thread, I hope it encourages more folks to get training, both weapons and open hand.