Bummer, one of our favorite places to eat out at has now posted a "No Firearms Allowed" sign. As some of you may know, the recent changes to Arizona's law went into effect on September 30th. These changes allow Concealed Weapons Permit holders to carry in an establishment with a liquor license provided they do not consume alcohol. Lis Doon Varna is an Irish pub in the Arrowhead area of northwest Phoenix. It has become one of our favorites over the last few months and their food really is good.

Copy of the letter that I sent them below. I'll make sure and post if I receive a response from them.

October 20, 2009

To The Management,

As regular patrons of your establishment, I think it is only fair to explain why my family will be dining elsewhere. We met with friends to have dinner and wish them well on an upcoming deployment to Iraq. We were surprised to see that a “No Firearms Allowed” sign had been posted next to the front door. My impression is that this is a relatively new posting since I do not recall seeing it on Saturday, October 3rd when we dined at you establishment.

As of September 30th, the recent changes to Arizona’s law allowing Concealed Carry Permit holders to carry within an establishment with a liquor license have gone into effect. Theses changes also make it illegal for a permit holder to consume alcohol while carrying a weapon.

Both myself and one other member of our party have held Concealed Carry Permits from the State of Arizona for a number of years. We got as far as the front door, saw the new sign, and returned to our vehicles to store our weapons before entering. It should be noted that no one in our party ordered alcohol at any point during our meal.

Can you honestly believe that a simple sign will deter an individual intent on doing harm to your staff or patrons? Can you honestly state that it is more of a threat to allow law abiding permit holders to carry inside your establishment while dining than force them to store their firearms in their vehicles in the parking lot where they may be subject to theft and misuse. Your sign has only banned the people legally trained to defend themselves and others from being the victim of a crime, the ones with money to spend in your establishment.

We have thoroughly enjoyed the food and atmosphere of your establishment, it has become one of our favorites. Our four year old daughter has especially enjoyed our weekend lunches there watching and dancing to the live performers. However, I value my family’s safety more than I do a good meal. We have a lot of choices on where we dine, especially in the Arrowhead area. Until your sign is removed, we and the other members of our party will be dining elsewhere.

Sincerely,

2000Z-71

Well written. I often wonder just how much of this idiocy has to do with political correctness versus litigation protection... as if any establishment could be held liable for a shooting on their premises if they failed to post one of the ridiculous signs beforehand.

quote:

Originally posted by Psychobastard:
Well written. I often wonder just how much of this idiocy has to do with political correctness versus litigation protection... as if any establishment could be held liable for a shooting on their premises if they failed to post one of the ridiculous signs beforehand.

I have never heard of a case where a business was sued for not banning guns before a shooting. Occasionally it's brought up as a concern, but I've never seen it. Any real examples out there?

Utah just passed it's parking lot bill, that gives businesses some liability protections. These types of laws should be expanded to include retail establishments, thus definitively removing potential liability as an excuse to ban guns.

F*ck 'em. If they don't want my gun inside their restaurant, then they don't want me inside.

One restaurant owner asked me why I carry a gun. I told him it was none of his damn business.

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:
F*ck 'em. If they don't want my gun inside their restaurant, then they don't want me inside.

One restaurant owner asked me why I carry a gun. I told him it was none of his damn business.

With an attitude like that, it is no wonder some people ban gun owners from carrying in their restaurants.

There are a couple of things I would change here. I would have explained in the letter the very stringent requirements to receive a concealed weapons permit and how much lower the rate of crime committed by permittees is compared to the general population. The second is I wouldn't frequent the business any longer until I have received a response. If I didn't receive a response I would follow up with a couple of phone calls.

too bad.

just another gun free zone to those who won't obey anyway...

I recently discovered the same thing at Gordon Biersch located at SanTan Village.

I think it is extremely important to let businesses know that their actions are costing the money, especially in these economical times.

Here is what I sent GB, no response yet. Please let us know if you do hear anything.

__________
Dear Sir/Ma'am,

Let me start this by saying I am a fan of your restaurants, beer and food, and have been visiting Goordon Biersch several times a year. I recently discovered your location at SanTan Village (Gilbert, AZ) and was looking forward to increasing the regularity of my visits.

However, when I went to this location on Sunday I noticed that a "No Firearms" sign had been posted. As of Sept 30th Arizona law allows Concealed Weapons Permit holders to carry a firearm, concealed, into establishments that serve alcohol as long as the permit holder does not consume alcohol. That is unless the establishment posts a "no firearms" sign. On Sunday I immediately left, even though I was not carrying at the time because I planned to drink. I will not return to your establishments until such sign is removed. Also, I am spreading the word to all of my friends (some are passport loyalty members) and can tell you that they will also boycott Gordon Biersch.

I would like to know why your establishment does not want the business of law abiding citizens that have taken the time to do background checks and specialty training in order to receive a Concealed Weapons Permit? We are not criminals. Criminals do not care what the laws says or even if you post a sign.

I appreciate your time and hope someday I will be welcomed back into your establishment.
_____________

quote:

Originally posted by Tecumseh:

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:
F*ck 'em. If they don't want my gun inside their restaurant, then they don't want me inside.

One restaurant owner asked me why I carry a gun. I told him it was none of his damn business.

With an attitude like that, it is no wonder some people ban gun owners from carrying in their restaurants.

Please remember to let us know when YOU obtain the right to LEGALLY OC/CC a handgun in your state.

Response that I received this morning. On one hand I do find it positive that the managing partner may take down the sign. On the other hand, I do feel like there is a little attitude in telling me that it's a problem that I need to solve for him. I will respond, but I do need to think about it a while. I will thank him for being open to taking the sign down, I just need to think of how best to respond to the rest of his letter.

2000Z-71,

Thanks for your letter. I and many of my friends and my managers own firearms or have concealed permits. We feel your pain.

I may or may not take the sign down at this point because it is too soon to evaluate the potential liability. I would like to take it down because we have a lot of police and military as customers and most of them pack concealed. However, if I do take it down and there is a gun incident on the property, the potential is high that some hot shot lawyer is going to sue me penniless.

Unfortunately the sign has nothing to do with our rights as legal gun owners and everything to do with how lawyers can sue one out of business if proper policies are not in place or the staff does not perform per the law to protect everyone's rights including a potential victim's rights. I do not allow my managers with conceal permits to carry on property due to the tremendous labiality risks.

In my opinion this law was poorly written and not very well thought out because business owners concerns were not addressed; specifically liability issues were not addressed. As a business owner I do not have enough information to write a policy to properly direct my staff if there is a gun incident, that will effectively address and manage the liability risk. If you can provide me that language for the policy, great, I will take the sign down tomorrow. If you can't, why are you mad at me for poorly written legislation? Better yet, go down to the state capital building to try to obtain this information, but be prepared to turn over your firearm prior to entering the building, they have firearm storage lockers outside as a public convince.

We did and do appreciate your business. But right now it is too soon with too many unknowns and liability risks to take the sign down. I hope things do change soon. If you have any info that may help me better manage these issues and to protect gun owner's rights...and limits our liability, please send it on.

Thank you,

Name Removed
Managing Partner
Lis Doon Varna Irish Pub and Restaurant

I'm sure he has a general liability policy for his business. Unless my insurer tells me to put up the sign, I wouldn't do it. If my insurer told me to put up the sign, I would search for another liabilty insurance carrier. YMMV

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:

quote:

Originally posted by Tecumseh:

quote:

Originally posted by GWbiker:
F*ck 'em. If they don't want my gun inside their restaurant, then they don't want me inside.

One restaurant owner asked me why I carry a gun. I told him it was none of his damn business.

With an attitude like that, it is no wonder some people ban gun owners from carrying in their restaurants.

Please remember to let us know when YOU obtain the right to LEGALLY OC/CC a handgun in your state.

+1
The way that we keep CC in our states...are to support businesses that don't fight our CC rights. If a business posts any sort of no weapon sign, they don't get my business period. If it is a place that I used to frequent, then they get a letter, similar to what has been posted...which tells them why they are losing my business.

It is having an attitude about it...which deters restaurants from such silliness. If they upset me or one of my buddies...then guess what? None of us will spend money there.

I respect their right to keep firearms out of their establishment. It is private property, and they have that right. I'll just exercise my right to choose where my hard earned money is spent. And...I'll make sure that my friends and family are educated so that their hard earned money is spent at places without such silly policies also.

Being vocal is the only way they are ever going to know. Telling the minimum wage receptionist about it...does nothing. Sending a letter or e-mail to corporate is how to get the message heard.

quote:

Originally posted by smokingun45:
I'm sure he has a general liability policy for his business. Unless my insurer tells me to put up the sign, I wouldn't do it. If my insurer told me to put up the sign, I would search for another liabilty insurance carrier. YMMV

This is the right answer.

It may be in his policy though....insurance carriers tend to address ALL possibilities in those things....that's why they're size 2 font and 100 pages long.

quote:

Originally posted by 2000Z-71:

2000Z-71,

I may or may not take the sign down at this point because it is too soon to evaluate the potential liability.

I'm sure they've never considered that they may have assumed liability for the well-being of those patrons they forced to leave their means to protect themselves in the parking lot. Or that, by their direction, the weapons were in someone's car when it was broken into in the parking lot. In the event of shooting, I'm sure he'll get sued penniless by one of their hot shot laywers instead.

In my opinion, the only person who should have any control over what (otherwise) lawful activities take place on private property is the owner of that property.

Should the owner of the property establish rules with which I disagree, I vote with my wallet by doing business elsewhere.

The free market at work, as it should be.

Good letter.

AZ people and other states get your cards here!!!
No CCW - No Money


Click onto card to see and read

order 25 count

order 5 pack

I'm not the seller. He's not making anything on this. The AZ CCW people just trying to get the word out.

So I want to CCW and have a burger with ice tea.

quote:

Originally posted by sig239srt:
Good letter.

AZ people and other states get your cards here!!!
No CCW - No Money


Click onto card to see and read

order 25 count

order 5 pack

I'm not the seller. He's not making anything on this. The AZ CCW people just trying to get the word out.

So I want to CCW and have a burger with ice tea.

Thank You, just ordered mine.

I commend you on taking the time to actually write a letter to the owner expressing your concerns. If more people would do the same, we would all be a lot more sucessful getting these establishments to take down such signage and recognize our right to carry. A couple thoughts.

1. Having viewed the sign, personally I would have not returned to my car to remove my weapon, rather I would have left to go have dinner at a restaurant that respects my right to carry.

2. I thought it was impressive that the business owner did respond to your letter. That's a good first step to opening a dailogue. I would point out, having some experience with litigation as it relates to a business owner's liability to protect a customer, that a skilled attorney could just as easily argue to a jury if you or someone else was injured in a hold up or other similar incident that, by posting the no concealed weapons sign, the business owner effectively removed your ability to protect yourself and at that point then assumed the responsibility to protect you instead. You might ask the restaurant owner how he feels about that.

Again, Kudo's to you for expressing your concerns and for exercising your right to dine elsewhere.

If my handgun is unwelcome, so is my money.

His response is kind of snarky IMO. Let him do his own "research" while you spend your money elsewhere.

Ask him what his liability is if you disarm yourself and come in to eat and are shot by someone disregarding the sign. Does he think your family will sue for making you disarm.

Print these back to back on buisness card stock & hand them out