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Picture of fpuhan
posted
In the wake of the Texas church shooting, I found this video to be extremely informative. Think you could do what Jack Wilson did?





You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you're not capable of great violence, you're not peaceful, you're harmless.

NRA Benefactor/Patriot Member
 
Posts: 2558 | Location: Peoples Republic of North Virginia | Registered: December 04, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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Thanks for the video; I seldom watch such, but that was worth it.

quote:
Originally posted by fpuhan:
Think you could do what Jack Wilson did?


As for the question: Possibly. I and a friend regularly fire a course of my own development that incorporates some of the skill drills he advocates. Our head shot drill is at 7 yards, but if we can’t hit a 4×6" “head” target in under 2.0 seconds—preferably less than 1.5—from the ready, it makes us sad. I believe that that zone size is more realistic than 3×5 inches set horizontally, but in any case, I’ll have to see what we can do at 15 yards. Candidates for the NRA LE handgun instructor course are expected to be capable of 6 inch groups at 15 yards, something I have no problem with, so 4×6 in less than 6 seconds? Probably.




“A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”
— Simon & Garfunkel, The Boxer, 1970
 
Posts: 41488 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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And again addressing the “Could you do it?” question, something that is invariably overlooked in incidents like this is the element of chance.

I haven’t researched the issue very much, but did Mr. Wilson ever say that the head shot was deliberate? I shoot a fair amount, but even under the stress of a familiar drill I sometimes fire shots that don’t hit where I intended them to. Fifteen yards (assuming that’s correct) is far enough that it doesn’t take much of a sight alignment error to throw the shot off a couple of feet. As usual we’re seeing speculation why he decided on a head shot, but that it was deliberate is just a guess at this point as far as I know.

None of that is intended to disparage what the hero (literally, for once) did, but if someone starts using this incident as proof of why we all need to start practicing to hit a 3×5 card at 15 yards, and that we are somehow not worthy to carry a gun unless we can (sometimes, anyway), we should keep in mind that not everything is always what we assume it to be.

Second, when we see videos like this with someone’s pontificating about what’s necessary for an effective shot to the head or elsewhere, there’s a tendency to forget that things like the common 3×5 inch “standard” are anything but. If the target is facing us directly, a shot that hits the left or right edge of that imaginary zone may not be fatal, or even an attack stopper. And on the other hand, hitting a bunch of stuff in the head above and below that 3 inch vertical distance can accomplish the goal very well, especially if we’re shooting a powerful cartridge like the 357 SIG from a P229. The only reason I can think of why some people believe that a bullet is going to have a hard time “getting into” the vital structures of the head is because they have very murky ideas of what bullets are capable of. Again, we’re lacking specific information about this incident, but there is no reason to assume that the neutralizing shot hit that magic “eyebox” zone.




“A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”
— Simon & Garfunkel, The Boxer, 1970
 
Posts: 41488 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of fpuhan
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Let's also not forget that "paralysis by analysis" is going to get you dead.

Maybe it was here, but I think it was on another forum, that I spoke about a training I had a year or so ago, where the major take-aways were
  • BREAK THE FREEZE. Everyone freezes. For how long is a matter of training!
  • IMPACT THE UNIVERSE. In short, MOVE.


In the video I posted, it was noted that the first casualty was one of the armed security men, who spent 3.1 seconds trying to get his gun into play. The one thing I noticed was that he was STARK STILL. Making himself an exposed target, in other words.

I try to attend an active shooter training every year or so. Standing at a range lane (as in the video) restricts any form of lateral movement that might save your life when the SHTF.




You can't truly call yourself "peaceful" unless you are capable of great violence. If you're not capable of great violence, you're not peaceful, you're harmless.

NRA Benefactor/Patriot Member
 
Posts: 2558 | Location: Peoples Republic of North Virginia | Registered: December 04, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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I definitely agree with all the comments about speed and “breaking the freeze.”

There are two relevant things I stress to myself and students.

The first is, “You can’t miss fast enough to win, but you can shoot slowly enough to lose.”
My primary complaint about “no misses permitted” law enforcement qualification courses is that they condition people to shoot as slowly as the course permits to ensure they never miss a single shot. In real life, if we miss, we should just keep shooting. We should not be thinking, “Oh crap! I just missed and failed the qual.”

As for movement, very often we’re limited to unnatural restrictions on a range, but even a single step left/right when drawing can break the tendency to just stand rooted on one place. Once we start moving, we are more likely to continue to move.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,




“A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”
— Simon & Garfunkel, The Boxer, 1970
 
Posts: 41488 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Just because you can,
doesn't mean you should
posted Hide Post
The time he references is somewhat misleading compared to real life.
The guy in the video was shooting "cold" but knew what he needed to do, approximately when he needed to be ready, exactly where the stationary target was located and that he would actually be shooting.
It is likely that the defenders sat through years of church services, don't know whats coming, where it's located and don't have the birds eye view of the camera. That distorts the time between the decision to reach for your gun to first shot.
Still a good idea to practice anything you can but this makes the real life situation these people faced look a lot different than reality.
 
Posts: 5809 | Location: NE GA | Registered: August 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by 220-9er:
... this makes the real life situation these people faced look a lot different than reality.


Exactly.




“A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”
— Simon & Garfunkel, The Boxer, 1970
 
Posts: 41488 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
and this little pig said:
posted Hide Post
quote:
In real life, if we miss, we should just keep shooting. We should not be thinking, “Oh crap! I just missed and failed the qual.”

You should train like you need to shoot. I agree, most law enforcement qualifications are stationary. Find yourself a range/club that allows controlled movement: just so you can ingrain movement in your training! This may/will/can save your life!!
 
Posts: 2965 | Registered: February 07, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Force on force training if available is great as well. I am fortunate to have a local instructor who does FoF classes somewhat regularly. I've seen OpSpec advertise them as well and I have just never been able to get my schedule and the locations to work out. I think last year was Alabama and Paducah this year if I remember correctly. Expensive, but worth every penny.

You will quickly figure out all of the things that are said in this thread. It is an astounding wake-up call to see what you really don't know, what you will do, and what you just can't fully understand until you have done it even though it isn't "real."
 
Posts: 305 | Location: GA | Registered: August 05, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
fugitive from reality
Picture of SgtGold
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The biggest thing I took away from the video of that shooting is how unprepared that first individual was to draw his gun. It looked like his pants were drooping and his shirt had come untucked, blocking his access to his pistol. When I teach someone I always stress the importance of a good belt and a proper holster.


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Posts: 6555 | Location: Newyorkistan | Registered: March 28, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of RichardC
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I don't remember viewing the video in the OP of this thread before today, but I thought it best to post here ...


In "Shooting Illustrated", April 2020, p.27, there is the article 'Jack Wilson, skills Check," by Ed Head.

He suggests an exercise at 17 yards, from concealment, draw and fire one shot to the head in 3 seconds.

He admonishes, "Draw Quickly, shoot carefully, or as Bill Jordan and others put it, "Take your time, fast." "

I had brought a pistol and 'rifle' and some 50 foot Slow and rapid fire bullseye targets to our indoor range.

Seeing a 'Q' target on the display wall reminded me of reading Mr. Head's article and challenge, so I bought a couple of them, and gave it a go.
(I added the vertical black line.)

This is a P226 DAK in 357 Sig with factory night sights drawn from OWB at 3 O'clock from concealment, with a move (because that's how I was taught).

The total misses didn't start happening until the fifth or 6th repeat, but the exercise was till quite sobering, and increased the already high respect I had for Jack Wilson's service last December.





You might give it a try.



Edited to add: At a news conference Sunday night, White Settlement Police Department Chief J.P. Bevering told reporters the gunman – who has yet to be identified – had sat down in a pew before getting up, taking out a shotgun and firing at a parishioner, who was killed. Wilson told reporters gathered at his home in White Settlement the gunman first shot Richard White, who was one of the security guards who has been keeping an eye on the man due to "some concerns about him." The church security team head said others noticed the man had a fake beard and fake wig on, in addition to a long coat. "We had cameras turned on him" he said. When the gunfire began, Wilson said there were people initially in between him and the shooter who stood up, and that he wanted to make sure he didn't hit a member as they were right in front of him.

A livestream of the church service shows the gunman getting up from a pew and talking to someone at the back of the church before pulling out a gun and opening fire.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/tex...-west-freeway-church


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Posts: 11236 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigforum K9 handler
Picture of jljones
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I have a couple of points of order.

An experienced shooter, who knows his limitations, can pull off certain levels of skill on demand. Can I pull off a 15 yard headshot on demand, in all conditions, and under stress? Yes. It isn't arrogance in saying that. I know what I am capable of.

Many years ago, I was teaching a Practical Fundamentals down in Florida. A forum member who was a former air marshal was in the class. He was shooting an old beater P228 in an Askins Avenger type strong side holster. At the end of the class, we cut a playing card as the "graduation exercise". It is done from 7 yards. DA/SA pistols are allowed to start in single action. Each shooter is told to take a sight picture that on the card and prep the trigger until the gun goes off on its own. Most all students get it done with 10 shots or so. That particular day, I came to the forum member, and told him to draw his P228 and put it in single action. He looked at me and said, "Nah, I'd rather shoot it from the holster." I looked at him and told him "Ok then". He then produced a smooth draw and broke a shot when the gun came to a stop at full extension. The results? A card shot in half on the first shot. On the draw.

It wasn't arrogance in his desire to do it from the draw. He KNEW before the hand touched the gun that the shot was entirely in his arena. That confidence transferred into results.

Now, with that being said. If you have a standard or a drill that you can clean 4 times out of 10, that isn't skill. It's luck. If it is a standard that you can clean 9/10. That's skill. The two shouldn't be confused. I tell people that your skill is only as reliable as your performance on your worst day.




www.opspectraining.com

"Make it a shooting, and not a gunfight" LSP552 02/19/2011



 
Posts: 33763 | Location: Logical | Registered: September 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have a simple standard:
Double tap at 21 feet into a 4 inch circle in 1.5 seconds. Draw from concealment.
I freely confess I dont always clean it.


End of Earth: 2 Miles
Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles
 
Posts: 9993 | Location: Marquette MI | Registered: July 08, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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