I do a lot of backpacking and have the same concerns as you do. I am concerned about weight and protection from the elements.

My weapon of choice is the P239 in 40 cal. to be optimum. It is not the most powerful but meets my weight and durability (to hell and back) requirements.

I carry the P239 in a SafePacker ...

http://store.thewilderness.com/index.php?cPath=51

The SafePacker fits snugly on my pack belt for easy access, has an accessory pocket (maps), and was designed for mountain rescue staff.

As always, when I return from my trips, I field strip my weapon to clean and let air dry. I also remove the grips to get rid of any precipitation.

Good luck!

Cant go wrong with a sub glock. I love my 27 and i have the 33 barrel.

Rugged and works every time.

quote:

Originally posted by trapper189:
I'd get this:

.44 Mag

Maybe not as rust resistant as you'd like, but price seems decent.

I've shot it and a 2.5" barrel 686 back to back and thought the .44's recoil was a bit softer. The 686 had smaller wood grips which probably had something to do my perception.

Gets my vote.

quote:

Originally posted by unokubi:
What kind of backpack do you use that can support your pistol?

www.camelbak.com
-->"Law Enforcement"
-->"Hydration Packs"
-->"Concealed Weapons"
-->"Demon"

Of course the Demon is only suitable as a daypack. Since I already have a daypack and camelbak doesn't offer an overnight/weekend pack I personally will be buying or making a holster to put on the waistbelt. The aforementioned safepacker for example. Or maybe I'll get creative with a concealed carry fanny pack, some scissors and a sewing machine.

I'm starting to wish Glock made a 10mm in the G19 size.

A Ruger in 44 mag. will more than handle anything in Washington. A cougar isn't all that hard to kill as long as you see it before it's on your back. The meth heads are a greater threat in my book. Booby traps, etc. are common with the nuts.

5.56 or .308 would be my suggestion.

But a .44 mag or Glock 20/29 would be pretty effective as well.

Nothing says protection more than having an AR swung round the back.

quote:

Originally posted by BigRed82:
5.56 or .308 would be my suggestion.
Nothing says protection more than having an AR swung round the back.

I could probably get away with it on the XC trails too

Hiking in Colorado and Utah - I always think I'm going to bring something bigger but I mostly bring the S&W J-frame because of the weight. It's a compromise.

Modern Day Savage,

You and I are in complete agreement, just members of the two different types of hikers so are coming from two different extremes I think. I definitely lean heavily on the "fast and light" side of things, generally heading out with only the bare minimum, with many pieces of gear serving multiple purposes, all of it being minimalistic, and that includes the gun.

I do think a lightweight recommendation is a good one to make to a person who hasn't yet fallen either on the side of "fast and light" or "kitchen sink", as a lightweight pistol will be more likely to fill the role, but a big enough caliber, like you prefer, is probably the safer recommendation, as well. I think my hiking friend's choice of the G-29 in 10mm was an excellent one, and if I wasn't so cheap I'd have one of my own. Since I already have a G-26, that's the one for me. I'm not knowledgeable enough in the subject of revolvers to know what is a comparable weight revolver in a suitable and comparable caliber to the G-29 in 10mm. That being said, that's why I like the G-29. It seems to have all the requirements of a great woods pistol.

I do have a strong preference for the Wilderness SafePacker as the carry method of choice. Its look and design blend right in perfectly with a hiking pack, and give instant access to the gun.

Some good thoughts and questions have been posted since I last visited this thread! I’ll take a crack at a few of the questions and make a few comments.

quote:

Originally posted by unokubi:
Bears are neither as fast nor as stealthy, but the vast majority of bear attacks occur because someone stumbled upon one in the wrong moment.
Again, your close encounter will happen very, very quickly. You'll need fast access to your weapon.
tk

While technically accurate, I think it’s worth noting some specific facts. Cougars have been known to sprint up to 40 mph. Black bears have been clocked in excess of 30 mph. While cougars may be faster than bears anyone who thinks they can run from either critter better rethink this plan. While cougars rely almost exclusively on stealthy stalking and surprise attacks which can be quite effective against their prey, they are also known for being skiddish creatures that frequently break off stalking if discovered or if they realize that their prey is larger than they estimated or if they are outnumbered. They usually only attack when conditions favor a successful outcome. Black bears have been known to stalk on rare occasions, however, IMO some exhibit an even more dangerous trait than stalking. Through food association some black bears have lost their fear and caution of humans. Once this has happened bears no longer bother to avoid humans and in some cases actually seek them out as being associative to food sources for them. Black bears have good close range vision, acute long distance hearing, and a sense of smell that’s been reported to be better than a blood hound’s. They can climb trees, have been known to swim for miles across strong currents (a black bear was found swimming in the Gulf of Mexico and they’ve been known to swim to remote islands), and they’re believed to have above average intelligence and memory, in comparison to other big game.

It doesn’t matter how heavy or light your gun is or what caliber you carry if you can’t access the gun so I completely agree with your conclusion that fast weapon access is important. I’m happy with my weapons access when day hiking, hunting, fishing, and 4 wheeling, however I need to find a better solution for the times I backpack.

quote:

quote:
Any more info on blackie attacks?

I have to think you'd have to be spectacularly unlucky to have bad experience with a bear, especially a black bear. IMHO, people tend to get too freaked out about bears.

Personally, I'd be far more concerned about humans as being the far more dangerous animal.

quote:

From what I know Black Bear attacks mostly occur when the hiker does something stupid. Get between it and it's cubs or smear fried chicken grease all over themselves (kids) for example. For the most part they run when they hear you coming.

quote:

Savage,
good post! But I'm curious about the quote below. I've been around black bears all my life, and the only attacks I've ever heard of were in national parks, where a lot of people do dumb things around animals that tend to associate people with food. Any more info on blackie attacks?

thanks

tk

One last thought. Grizzly, Polar, Kodiak bear reputations notwithstanding, some wildlife authorities have stated that black bears account for more injuries/deaths each year than all other bears combined.

This statement was found in an article written by hunting and firearms expert Dick Metcalf, and was purported to be a direct quote from noted author, lecturer, photography and wildlife expert Leonard Lee Rue III. Initially the quote struck me as odd and I was skeptical of it. However, after thinking about it I found that it supported some of my own conclusions based on readings of the subject. I did a quick google search and couldn’t find the specific statement source or context, but given the reputation and experience of these two men I’m willing to accept it on face value, barring info to the contrary.

Here is a link to a great article on bear hunting and this is where I found the above statement.

http://www.foggymountain.com/handgun-bear-hunting.shtml

I have had numerous close encounters with other wild animals, and I’ve observed a disturbing trend that seems to be born out by various wildlife experts. In general, the more exposure wild animals have to human interaction the more de-sensitized to it they become. Raccoons, skunks, chipmunks, squirrels, mice, hummingbirds, Red Tail Hawks, wood peckers, fox, coyote, Mule Deer… I could list pages of examples where I’ve witnessed these creatures alter their behavior once they’ve learned to either tolerate the presence of humans while they nest, hunt, feed, or in some cases, actually associate humans with their food source.

I’ll qualify my next statement by saying that I’ve never seen a cougar in the wild (although I found a set of fresh cat tracks a few years ago while fishing the Arkansas River at night). I haven’t seen a bear in the wild since I was a young boy (however I was lucky enough to find some fresh bear scat a 1/4 mile from my campsite in the Weminuche Wilderness area once.) But it’s not for a lack of trying. I’ve gone as far as going night hiking trying to observe wildlife in general and specifically bears and cats, but no luck. Maybe I’m trying too hard.

I’m going to step out on a limb here and offer an observation/ opinion as an avid and experienced but amateur outdoorsman. I would agree with those that generalize black bears as cautious shy creatures, from a historical perspective. However, once a creature as adaptive and opportunistic as the black bear learns to associate humans with food their behavior changes. They no longer are cautious wary creatures but bold and undeterred by human presence. As mankind continues its expansion into wildlife margin areas wild animals will continue to become de-sensitized and change their behavior. Black bears that have little to no exposure to humans tend to be wary, cautious, but curious creatures. Black bears that have been exposed to humans quickly adapt and once they’ve learned that humans are associated with a source of food they quickly lose their fear of humans and change their behavior accordingly. One example of this is the black bear populations that are now found NOT to hibernate in the winter. They’ve adapted to human sources of food such as trash cans, dumpsters, trash on the side of the road, landfills, bird and squirrel feeders, and in some cases have broken into homes and businesses to steal food. My personal opinion is that this adaptation is a sad and undesirable consequence of human expansion that will have an effect ranging from minor annoyances up to tragic consequences for both humans and wild life, but this is off-topic and best saved for another post.

I do NOT want to paint black bears as some sort of ferocious man-eating demon to be feared and avoided at all costs. This simply isn’t so and their adaptation to human encounters hasn’t dissuaded me from enjoying my outdoor activities. But I also think it would be a mistake to dismiss bears as a lesser threat than cougars…not all bears will vanish into the forest at the first sign of a human. This AIN’T Winnie-the-Pooh we’re talkin’ about.

Here are some links to stories about black bear attacks in Colorado. These attacks range from 2001-2007, although I included one link to a blog about a 1973 black bear attack that I found interesting as this particular attack reportedly involved a very rare occurrence of a predacious bear. I think that the conditions under which these attacks happened can reveal some important black bear traits. In some cases the victims probably could have made more wise decisions regarding their habits, but in others I’m not sure they could have done anything differently to avoid the attack.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002960115_webbear28.html

http://www.suite101.com/discussion.cfm/bears/17847

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4191/is_20010725/ai_n9992630

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9803E3D6...36A25754C0A9659C8B63

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=69055

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/07/20/earlyshow/main710339.shtml

http://cbs4denver.com/local/aspen.bear.attack.2.562753.html

As someone who spends a good deal of time outdoors I tend to read books and articles about it, as well as watch local news stories that cover nature and wildlife. I believe that the number and type of human-wildlife encounters can be informative and, more importantly, a general indication as to what level of adaptation local wild life populations have reached. In recent years our city has had several black bear encounters that ranged from bears climbing into local backyard apple trees where they would gorge themselves and then sleep on the branches for hours to a bear taking a dip in a local swimming pool. A couple years ago a black bear broke into a local home and after rummaging through a kitchen and eating a cake and a jar of frosting found its way into a freezer where a prized trophy brown trout was wrapped up and waiting to be delivered to a taxidermist for proper mounting. Bye Bye trophy trout. Last summer my brother’s neighbor’s dog squared off against a black bear in its yard and ended up having extensive surgery and rehab to repair the injury. Earlier this year local news ran a story where a black bear broke through a glass door into a Circuit City, the break-in was caught on the security camera. Just a few days ago local news ran a story about a family that was having a picnic on a dock set on the shoreline of a lake. They left their food and when they returned they found a black bear had broken into their cooler and drank a case of pop and some left overs.

Here is a rather noteworthy black bear encounter that happened just a couple weeks ago and just a few minutes from where I live. This received quite a bit of local and national news coverage as this occurred during a sporting event involving nationally known professionals. During this particular encounter not only was the large black bear taped, but also a deer and a fox. I found this incident particularly interesting because there were literally thousands of people at this event, but that fact did not appear to bother the bear in the least.

Better article
http://www.myfoxcolorado.com/myfox/pages/Home/Detail;js...&pageId=1.1.1&sflg=1

Better Pic
http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_10070899

While the examples I’ve listed confirm my own belief that the local black bear populations I’m more likely to encounter have had sufficient exposure to humans to lose their fear of them and associate them as a food source I don’t believe this is necessarily so with all black bears. I suspect that black bear populations in other parts of the U.S. will demonstrate this trait to varying degrees.

I think it would be wise for anyone planning a trip into black bear country to try and evaluate what level of adaptation that specific population has reached. If there have been numerous human-black bear encounters or attacks, frequent sightings of bears in dumpsters and trash cans etc…then it would be wise to take the threat more seriously. If, however, you are in black bear country where sightings are few and far between with little to no human contact then you can probably curl up in your sleeping bag and get a good night’s sleep without concerning yourself with them.

To the topic of cougar and black bear calibers and loads I thought that I would include the following info which was taken from the Colorado Division of Wildlife 2008 Big Game Regs. My personal opinion is that the CDOW might be a little “optimistic” about the effectiveness of these required minimums but I’ll leave it to the thread readers to decide this and to decide whether this should have any influence on what an appropriate caliber and load should be. CDOW seems to subscribe to the “light and fast” approach. I've placed the text I thought should be noted in Bold.

CDOW cougar hunting caliber LEGAL HUNTING METHODS:

Centerfire Rifles Or Handguns: Bullets must weigh a minimum of 45 grains and must produce a minimum of 400 foot-pounds of energy at muzzle. Rimfires are not legal.

Muzzle-loading Rifles: Minimum of .40 caliber.

Shotguns: Minimum of 20 gauge and firing a single slug.

CDOW black bear hunting caliber LEGAL HUNTING METHODS

1. CENTERFIRE RIFLES
a. Must be min. .24 caliber (6 mm).
b. Must have min. a 16-inch barrel and be at least 26 inches long.
c. If semiautomatic, they can hold max. of 6 rounds in the magazine and
chamber combined.
d. Must use expanding bullets that weigh min. 70 grains for deer, pronghorn
and bear, 85 grains for elk and moose, and have an impact energy (at
100 yds.) of 1,000-ft. pounds as rated by manufacturer.
e. It is illegal to hunt game birds, small game mammals or furbearers with
a centerfire rifle larger than .23 caliber during regular rifle deer and elk seasons
Wof I-25, without an unfilled deer or elk license for the season. A
small game license is required.
2. FULLYAUTOMATIC RIFLES prohibited.
3. MUZZLELOADING RIFLES & SMOOTHBORE MUSKETS
a. In-line muzzleloaders are legal.
b. Must be single-barrel that fires a single round-ball or conical projectile
the length of which does not exceed twice the diameter.
c. To hunt deer, pronghorn or bear, they must be min. of .40 caliber.
d. To hunt elk or moose, they must be min. of .50 caliber.
e. From .40 caliber to .50 caliber, bullets must weigh min. 170 grains.
f. If greater than .50 caliber, bullets must weigh min. 210 grains.
7. HANDGUNS
a. Barrel must be min. 4 inches long.
b. Must use a min. .24-caliber (6 mm) diameter expanding bullet.
c. Shoulder stocks or attachments prohibited.
d. Must use a cartridge or load that produces min. energy of 550-ft. lbs. at
50 yds. as rated by manufacturer.

Laivindil, I apologize for the parts of my post where I went off topic, but I felt it was important to characterize black bears accurately.

Edited to fix links, add some bold text, and make a couple grammatical changes

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Modern Day Savage,

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:
Hiking in Washington definitely calls for a rust resistant firearm. Hiking in my opinion calls for a light pistol. In my opinion, you have two choices. 10mm glock or S&W 329pd (44mag 26 ounce airlite).

I have the S&W. I've shot a bear with it at close range using a 320 gr hard lead bear load. I swear the thing laughed at me. It was a spine shot, and it didn't sever the spine. It just bounced along the backbone and stuck in the base of the skull. The bear was still alive for another 10 minutes after that. This is after taking 5 rounds from a 300 winmag. That was a black bear. Every round was in a vital zone. Every round was a kill shot....it just took a while. Both lungs had holes in them, the heart had a shot through it, both shoulder blades were blown out and one front elbow. Of course we grow them big in Alaska....but don't ever discount a bear.

Here's a picture of the gun, and another of the bullet recovered from the base of the scull.




No firearm will do you any good at all if you don't have quick/instant access to it. I like a drop-leg tac carry. I also bring along a sportsman's carry. I never leave my only firearm in a pack. You can become separated from your pack....

Finding a drop leg that worked with my 329pd was hard....but finding one for a glock is easy. Another consideration. I'd strongly consider a 10mm glock.

AK, I was hoping you would pipe in with your bear hunting experience-Thanks!

Ah, now that 329 pd is interesting. I haven't handled one before; how does it stack up as a Smith? Same trigger pull, reliability, accuracy? How is the recoil?

Also, I would be interested in any info you have on that round that stopped at the bear's skull. Brand? Any chrono data?

How big was the bear?

Always good to have some first hand experience, thanks for taking the time to post!

My two choices, and I always argue with myself before I set out are the S&W 629 3" Backpacker .44mag, and a Glock 20. 18 rounds of .44 vs 46 rounds of 10mm. hmmm.

quote:

Originally posted by Modern Day Savage:

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:
Hiking in Washington definitely calls for a rust resistant firearm. Hiking in my opinion calls for a light pistol. In my opinion, you have two choices. 10mm glock or S&W 329pd (44mag 26 ounce airlite).

I have the S&W. I've shot a bear with it at close range using a 320 gr hard lead bear load. I swear the thing laughed at me. It was a spine shot, and it didn't sever the spine. It just bounced along the backbone and stuck in the base of the skull. The bear was still alive for another 10 minutes after that. This is after taking 5 rounds from a 300 winmag. That was a black bear. Every round was in a vital zone. Every round was a kill shot....it just took a while. Both lungs had holes in them, the heart had a shot through it, both shoulder blades were blown out and one front elbow. Of course we grow them big in Alaska....but don't ever discount a bear.

Here's a picture of the gun, and another of the bullet recovered from the base of the scull.

**pictures snipped***

No firearm will do you any good at all if you don't have quick/instant access to it. I like a drop-leg tac carry. I also bring along a sportsman's carry. I never leave my only firearm in a pack. You can become separated from your pack....

Finding a drop leg that worked with my 329pd was hard....but finding one for a glock is easy. Another consideration. I'd strongly consider a 10mm glock.

AK, I was hoping you would pipe in with your bear hunting experience-Thanks!

Ah, now that 329 pd is interesting. I haven't handled one before; how does it stack up as a Smith? Same trigger pull, reliability, accuracy? How is the recoil?

Also, I would be interested in any info you have on that round that stopped at the bear's skull. Brand? Any chrono data?

How big was the bear?

Always good to have some first hand experience, thanks for taking the time to post!

The bear was an Alaskan Coastal Black Bear. I took it while hunting from my boat in the spring of '07. 260 yard shot from a rock in the bay. 5 rounds of 300 win mag. went into it first. All vital zone kill shots. 3-180 gr accubond and 2 180 gr barnes x. All penetrated completely through and were not recovered. The bear was 6'5" squared, skull was 19 7/8" (boone and crocket is 20") Sure wish my taxidermist could have found an 1/8" somewhere in that skull....lol.

Here's the shot from reverse....look at the rocks jutting out right before the corner of the bay....I was perched on that rock after doing a combat/tactical zodiak paddle from my boat (probably about a 500 yard paddle to keep quiet). Notice one shot went through the log...(still penetrated all the way through the bear)...also notice the claw and teeth marks from the bear. I shot him...and he started tearing the crap out of everything in reach.


Here's the drop zone:


The 44 mag was a bear load bought locally, A very hot load. Recoil for those rounds are a bitch. It hurts to shoot it...even with rubber grips and a glove. 44 specials are tolerable..but still a handful with that pistol. You don't shoot it for fun.

Here's a couple pics of the rug:

G20 in 10mm. ballisticaly one of the most powerful auto-loader rounds (in terms of both kinetic energy and momentum). capacity is good, but if you want something to bring down big yogis go with something larger. what exactly that is... http://sigforum.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/630601935/m/9291043531

Other. If cougars and meth-heads are the concern, a big-bore is not needed; .357 mag is fine. I would carry a Ruger GP100 or Speed Six, along with an SP101 snubby. Not that there is anything wrong with big bores, but my hands are not big enough to properly hold and control most big-bore DA revolvers. If soaked in rain, the Rugers will detail-strip easier than an S&W, and the Rugers have more stainless internal parts than the S&Ws. Keep those internal parts and sights protected from rust!

Or, I might just carry a SIG P229 instead of the larger revolver. The slide is stainless, and the frame aluminum alloy. As with the stainless revolvers, the small bits will corrode, plus the barrel.

Moreover, stainless steel will stain less, but will rust. Protect it!

Edited to add: I did not get into bear issues, because the original post did not mention bears, and bears are not common in Texas, where I live. We do have cougars and meth-heads aplenty.

quote:

Originally posted by Rexster:
Edited to add: I did not get into bear issues, because the original post did not mention bears, and bears are not common in Texas, where I live. We do have cougars and meth-heads aplenty.

Interesting. I could have sworn the original post included bears as a concern but a quick check shows you are correct.

Looks like I've been blathering about something off-topic. DOH!

I agree, for the tweakers and cats, a 44 mag is not required.

quote:

Originally posted by AKSuperDually:
The bear was an Alaskan Coastal Black Bear. I took it while hunting from my boat in the spring of '07. 260 yard shot from a rock in the bay. 5 rounds of 300 win mag. went into it first. All vital zone kill shots. 3-180 gr accubond and 2 180 gr barnes x. All penetrated completely through and were not recovered. The bear was 6'5" squared, skull was 19 7/8" (boone and crocket is 20") Sure wish my taxidermist could have found an 1/8" somewhere in that skull....lol.

Here's the shot from reverse....look at the rocks jutting out right before the corner of the bay....I was perched on that rock after doing a combat/tactical zodiak paddle from my boat (probably about a 500 yard paddle to keep quiet). Notice one shot went through the log...(still penetrated all the way through the bear)...also notice the claw and teeth marks from the bear. I shot him...and he started tearing the crap out of everything in reach.

The 44 mag was a bear load bought locally, A very hot load. Recoil for those rounds are a bitch. It hurts to shoot it...even with rubber grips and a glove. 44 specials are tolerable..but still a handful with that pistol. You don't shoot it for fun.

Here's a couple pics of the rug:

AK, thanks for the info and the pics! Man, I have got to try that sometime!

I’m a bit confused about the presence of methheads in the wilderness. Most methheads I have encountered aren’t exactly of the outdoorsy type. Or are you talking about actually stumbling across a clandestine lab, protected by armed guards who don’t want to give you a chance of ratting them out?

In case of the lone methhead out camping, I would think arming for the toughest critter you are likely to encounter, and relying on that gun for human protection as well, would be fine. After all, out in the boonies overpenetration is not much of an issue. Something like a .44 or larger revolver, depending on your weight requirements. Against the latter, a high capacity auto, or even better, an AR with several mags, along with a radio to call in airstrikes, would feel a lot more comforting.

If you can reliably single handedly hang on to, and fire without severely limpwristing, a Glock 20/29 with a dog (the most likely critter in need of a good killing, after all) chewing on your strong hand, that might be the ideal compromise. Fast and flat shooting (for a pistol) enough to engage long gun armed methlab guards (or at least one can dream…., while reading ballistics tables on the internet), with enough bullet weight to penetrate some bone at close range.

quote:

Originally posted by PeterCartwright:
Ruger SP101 (.357) with the 3.25 barrel.

+1 on the Ruger 3.25 inch loaded with a 170 grain hardcast lead bullet.

Yeah, it is not so much the meth users that cause concern, but guys with illegal operations set up in unpopulated areas, whether those operations involve meth, marijuana, or smuggling any number of things.