The reality is that with a heavy gun, most people aren't going to bother to carry it while doing actual climbing, backpacking, or long dayhikes, at least not after the first time or two. It sounds like it makes sense at first, when you're still at home or while at the gun shop, but a heavy all stainless revolver isn't going to be any kind of best friend on a long trip when weight counts.

I do a lot of backpacking and long dayhikes. One of the very last guns I would choose would be a heavy frame revolver or any kind of all-steel semi-auto. I don't care what minimal extra potential or protection they can offer me. It ain't worth it. I'd rather carry nothing than a too-heavy or too-bulky gun.

My personal opinion is to go light in weight, just as you would with the rest of your gear. A light sub-compact Glock or Airweight revolver will be something you'll actually carry on these trips. The Glock has the advantage of resistance to the elements, the ability to be detail stripped with a heavy paper clip if it falls in the mud or a river, and a capacity advantage. I like that. One of my hiking friends carries a G-29 in 10mm and loves it for this purpose. I carry a G-26 and think it's perfect. Believe it or not, I was fine with a KelTec .380 for a good many trips. But, you sound like you want a larger caliber so the G-29/G-30 could be good picks.

Again, weight is really important here, and I will argue that it is much more important than caliber when your trips will be long or the terrain difficult. You'll be glad you went lighter.
Both of us use the Wilderness Safepacker and attach it to the waist belt of the pack.

In the woods or around the farm, I carry my Ruger Vaquero, single action .45 Long Colt with either Cor-Bon's or Winchester Silver Tips. The HP's in these various munitions are commonly referred to by my crew as "flying ashtrays" by virtue of the big hole in the end.

My carry piece is a 4 5/8" barreled, blued gun. If you aren't carrying outside the backpack, rust resistance in a silicone sock won't be too much of an issue. Holster carry will be an issue in the wet woods, though.

I voted Taurus revolver, but for self defense, I'd recommend a stainless Charter Arms revolver. Maybe the .44 special would be a good choice for caliber as the recoil would not be too violent for a woman in a "have to shoot" situation.

Well I would go for a Glock simply for their resiliance to the elements.

You could go with a Glock 31 or 32 in .357sig, which with some nice Double Tap ammo will match a .357 revolvers capability of stopping both 2 and 4 legged creatures.

You could also go with the Glock 20 in 10mm, which would be my choice. Load it up with some Double Tap 180gr. Gold dots and you will get 1300fps and ~670lbft from a G20.

I have yet to see a .40+P round as the standard .40 is +P already when compared to other "+P" type rounds.

I think that a S&W Model 66 is ideal for this. They're lightweight, accurate, fire a potent and time tested round, and point instinctively. You can also get any kind of grips you want for it.

If not that, then a Glock 31 or 32 in .357sig would be my next choice. My first CCW handgun was a Glock 31, it rode in my 21 year old waistband for a year before I started packing K-frames. For the last 4 years I've had a S&W model 65 or 66 with me. I've switched to a Sig P6 recently, but the S&W will always be my favorite carry gun.

I have a G29. It's a good choice. Easy to pack, tough, reliable, and enough power to handle most any two or four legged problems short of a brown bear.

Modern Day Savage and clayshooter you both make excellent points. I'm not a subscriber of the "ultralight" backpacking ideology but I am minimalist/lightweight. I'm torn between going with a proven but heavy .357mag and the lighter Glock 10mm.

A quick glance at wikipedia shows 10mm as putting out ~728-767 ft-lbs of energy and .357mag as putting out ~449-574 ft-lbs of energy. There is also the quote

quote:

The 10mm Auto falls between the .357 Magnum and the .41 Magnum in muzzle energy for popular loadings.

My natural instinct being to automatically suspect anything wikipedia says I have to ask those more knowledgeable; do those numbers mean squat? If I read this right the 10mm has more energy on impact than .357 making it the better choice for 4-legged-creature-protection.

Another thought: would the .40 be a viable option as well? according to wikipedia they put out ~484-567 ft-lbs of energy and this round opens up the possibility of a sub-compact XD. I've shot both the 3" XD and the Glock 26 in the past and found them both accurate and comfortable with a slight preference to the XD ergonomically. My girlfriend would probably be a bit more comfortable with the additional grip safety and chamber loaded indicator.

I carry a Kahr PM9 just about everywhere. I went on a two week backpacking trip(in the UTAH outback the entire time) years ago and I carried a Beretta 84F with a spare mag for a total of 27 rounds.

If you feel unsafe with a 9mm or 38sp or 380auto get one of these... The rounds in the pic are 9mm - 45acp - 500 S&W.

I voted for other in your poll. I'm in agreement with what some have already stated about a .44 Magnum revolver. I carry a Smith & Wesson 629 Mountain Gun when out in the woods/desert. The Mountain Gun is a little lighter than a standard 4" steel revolver. If weight is really a concern you could go with one of the newer Scandium framed revolvers like the 329.

In my opinion it's tough to beat the versatility of the .44 Magnum especially if you handload. It can be loaded hot for hunting or mild for target/plinking. There's also the option of using snake shot loads in it. When antelope hunting on the plains where rattlesnakes are common, I often load the first 2 rounds in the cylinder with snake shot.

If you're more comfortable with an autoloader take a look at the Glock 29. The 10mm has a little bit of an edge over the .357 in ballistics. You could also go with a 1911 platform in 10mm like a commander sized Bobtail from Dan Wesson. I have a 5" Dan Wesson Razorback 1911 that I'm starting to like more and more.

Everything has a trade off. Lightweight usually means big recoil. Big cartridges also mean big recoil. Smaller cartridges have a smaller effect on the business end of the gun. For me the 629MG really offer the best balance between all the factors at hand. It's got enough weight that it's not uncontrollable to shoot and it is small enough to pack on a beltvand even conceal.

You might want to take a look at the Safepacker from Wilderness as a method for carrying when in the woods. It's a holster that doesn't look like a holster and does not draw attention to itself.

Clay Shooter, you make a valid point that shouldn’t be over-looked when discussions like this take place. Anyone who hikes or backpacks quickly learns that reducing weight is the key to successful trail trips. The real trick is to figure out what is needed and what is not needed. If one is a minimalist and is tough enough to do without most of the comforts of home then a light pack will serve them well. If the hiker has to change their clothes everyday and drink espresso by the campfire then they are going to pay a price for this and will literally have to shoulder the burden on the trail.

As with most all decisions there are trade-offs.

If the hiker is part of the “light and fast crowd” then they will opt for a less effective caliber in a lighter package.

If the hiker is part of the “kitchen sink crowd” then the penalty in weight is worth carrying a platform in a more suitable caliber.

I think the first question that needs to be answered by anyone considering carrying a firearm while backpacking/ hiking is ‘what threats do I expect to defend myself from’.

If the only threat one expects to face is a human attack than my previous suggestion of a magnum revolver is probably overkill that will cost the hiker dearly in a weight penalty. Just take along your EDC or find a lighter platform that shares the same caliber/load as your EDC.

If, however, a hiker/ backpacker has some concerns about facing a wild animal attack then it makes more sense to identify what critters may attack and what caliber/load is going to give them a reasonable chance of stopping the attack.

Many hunters that harvest black bears in the lower 48 feel that the minimum caliber to use is 41 magnum, with some leaning more conservatively towards 44 magnum. Additionally, many hunters feel that the load used should produce a minimum of a 1000 f.p.s. with a minimum of a 200 gr. JRN or cast projectile. Again, please keep in mind that these are minimum requirements and, IMO, minimum requirements that are followed produce minimum results.

That’s not to say that a black bear can’t be killed with a lesser caliber or load, as I’ve read both confirmed and unconfirmed reports of this. I’ve read a report where a 357 magnum stopped a black bear dead in its tracks and I’ve also read an account where an entire cylinder of 357 magnum 158 gr. was emptied into the chest of a black bear and failed to slow him down.

The 10mm may be the only auto loader cartridge that I would even consider for black bear defense. The 10mm produces more muzzle energy than the 357 magnum, but less than the 41 or 44 magnum. I have relatively little experience with this cartridge, but my understanding is that many of the commercially available loads are powered down below the minimal number of 200 gr./1000 f.p.s. Companies such as Buffalo Bore do offer full power hunting loads for this caliber which make it more attractive for black bear defense. The factory numbers listed suggest that this load would meet the requirements. The only reservation I have regarding the 10mm for black bear defense is that it appears to be unproven. I am only aware of one unconfirmed report where a bear was stopped with a 10mm, and personally I would like to see a little more proven success of the caliber/load for this purpose before relying on it.

As others including Clay Shooter have pointed out the Glock platform offers a lot of attractive features for hiking use, and I agree with them. I have a Glock 22 and find myself wondering if the Glock 20 might meet my wilderness needs. As mentioned earlier, the full power 10mm hunting loads would be best suited for black bear duty, however they may also produce larger extreme spreads. It’s been reported that various platforms including Glocks may require stronger recoil springs when using this load.

While I’m confident in the 44 mag for black bear duty I am not stuck on a stainless steel revolver as the platform to launch it from. I have been exceedingly happy with my 629’s performance including its ability to tame this round. The same weight issue that hinders me when carrying it also helps me when firing this potent round. However, if I could find a lighter revolver that still offered the same level of performance and shootability in this caliber I’d be willing to consider it.

Incidentally, I fall into the second group of hikers mentioned above. I don’t know, maybe because of the Boy Scout mantra (Be Prepared) that was ingrained in me when I was younger . I’m working to move towards the middle on this one and have found ways to reduce some of my pack weight by using gear that could pull double duty. However, when it comes to the choice of my wilderness gun I land on the side of carrying an effective caliber in an effective platform and if this means packing extra weight than I can live with that. I don’t carry a handgun as a teddy bear or security blanket that simply makes me feel safe by the mere act of carrying one. I choose to carry a handgun in a caliber that I have a reasonable expectation of defending myself with. Obviously, this is an individual decision where the trade-offs will have to be weighed.

I’ve neglected to mention shot placement in my post as I hope most who read this will acknowledge the importance it plays in this discussion. It is even more critical in stopping bears. Also, I have neglected to discuss cougar specific calibers because I believe that acceptable black bear caliber/loads would also be effective on the cats.

2000Z-71, good post. I agree that the 44 mag. offers a lot of flexibility in loading, not to mention that you can fire 44 spl through the same platform.

I carry shot shells in my 629 also, and have found them to have better effective range than in 9mm.

laivindil, obviously you will have to prioritize what features are most important to you. Let us know what you settle on!

One last thought. Grizzly, Polar, Kodiak bear reputations notwithstanding, some wildlife authorities have stated that black bears account for more injuries/deaths each year than all other bears combined.

Just throwing this out, how about the "Judge" the 45LC is a pretty good round for stopping critters and a .410 is a great snake round. Always thought this would make a good truck gun just don't know about tiggers, and lions and bears etc.

A couple of thoughts from someone who has spent a lifetime hiking, backpacking and shooting....

There's a lot of sound advice above. The problem is that the gun you choose for defense from people will be different from the gun you choose for defense from critters. And how you carry it will be just as important.

I live in a state with cougars. I've backpacked in their country in my home state and out west. To definitively put down a six-foot cat, you'll want a 30-30 or a .44 carbine. A .308 would be better. Especially when the critter is in fighting mode. The problem is, and I can't stress this enough, you won't see 'em coming. Cougars are fast and very strong, but they live by stealth attacks.

Bears are neither as fast nor as stealthy, but the vast majority of bear attacks occur because someone stumbled upon one in the wrong moment.
Again, your close encounter will happen very, very quickly. You'll need fast access to your weapon.

The point of this is that the way you carry will be every bit as important as what you're carrying. How will you rig it on your backpack? You can get away with mounting a knife on th belt of a backpack, but a gun is going to be too heavy (at least for the packs I've used. There might be something out there that would work. Would other forumites be willing to post pictures of their backpacking rigs?). Wearing a separate belt under the belt of a pack will be misery.

If you're just using a light daypack that does not bear the weight on you hips, open carry with a belt is OK. Another option is one of the maxpedition-type packs. If you're using a real backpack that puts the weight on your hips, I would try to set up a chest-mounted rig across the shoulder straps. But that will mostly work for the lighter pistols.

If I were going your route today, I'd arm myself for the methhead. I don't care for glocks, but light and rust resistant is definitely the way to go. As far as caliber goes, I'd choose the heaviest caliber that you're competent with. I'd prefer the 10 and .357 SIG over the .40 (which is a fine caliber) for this application because if you ever have to deal with critters, the extra penetration is important. Just make sure you're competent with the gun/caliber combination. Small, lightweight guns in heavy calibers can be tough to control -- especially under stress.

good hiking!

tk

Savage,

good post! But I'm curious about the quote below. I've been around black bears all my life, and the only attacks I've ever heard of were in national parks, where a lot of people do dumb things around animals that tend to associate people with food. Any more info on blackie attacks?

thanks

tk

quote:

One last thought. Grizzly, Polar, Kodiak bear reputations notwithstanding, some wildlife authorities have stated that black bears account for more injuries/deaths each year than all other bears combined.

quote:

Any more info on blackie attacks?

I have to think you'd have to be spectacularly unlucky to have bad experience with a bear, especially a black bear. IMHO, people tend to get too freaked out about bears.

Personally, I'd be far more concerned about humans as being the far more dangerous animal.

quote:

Originally posted by radioman:
I didn't see J-frame S&W air-weight, but that's my choice.

+1 except make it a .357 mag Airlite like the S&W340SC.

From what I know Black Bear attacks mostly occur when the hiker does something stupid. Get between it and it's cubs or smear fried chicken grease all over themselves (kids) for example. For the most part they run when they hear you coming. That doesn't mean I don't want to be prepared for them but the relative risk is low especially since I don't bushwhack. I stick to designated trails and tend to talk while moving. While overnighting a bear cannister and cooksite many yards away from my shelter will be utilized.

Cougers and their ambush attacks and methheads and their ...stupidity... are what I'm most concerned about. unokubi makes a good point about speed of access and a safepacker is looking more and more attractive to me. Looking back at what 'Savage said and the wiki page on 10mm there are 180 and 200 grain bullets putting out 728 and 750 ft-lbs of energy that might be acceptable for cougers, 'heads and (barely) bears.

The research continues.

I carry a S&W M-65 stainless .357, 4", loaded with Cor-Bon 200 gr. hard cast loads. A Fobus Kydex holster fits nicely on my pack belt at the 1 o'clock position (open carry). I also carry spray on my sternum strap (easy to get to). My last foray into the woods was last fall (late September) in Southern Colorado. In 5 days, the most vicious critter I saw was a chipmunk that scolded me for setting up camp under HIS tree . This is the time that bears will be foraging for the upcoming winter---didn't see a one. No sign of any cats. Due to the late season, didn't see anyone on the trail either. Practicing good wilderness techniques (food storage & cooking in particular) is the best defense.
I agree with the opinion that one is more likely to run into danger from a two legged predator that any bear or cat. The following happend about 3 months prior and 40 miles from where I was was hiking last fall:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/13581079/detail.html

Don't know of any bear or cat attack in Colorado last year

Same down here in Florida. We get some yearly attacks by gators and rabid bobcats (as well as by exotics like monitor lizards and pythons), but the biggest concern are the human predators. We've had multiple cases like the one below.

What kind of backpack do you use that can support your pistol?

thanks

tk

quote:

Originally posted by Sgt Neutron:
The following happend about 3 months prior and 40 miles from where I was was hiking last fall:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/13581079/detail.html

Don't know of any bear or cat attack in Colorado last year

I recommend an M&P 9c. Small, light and easily carried with good round capacity. Cougars are not all that tough, nor heavy boned that a couple of shots at close range with a +P 124 GD wouldn't dispatch it.

Hiking in Washington definitely calls for a rust resistant firearm. Hiking in my opinion calls for a light pistol. In my opinion, you have two choices. 10mm glock or S&W 329pd (44mag 26 ounce airlite).

I have the S&W. I've shot a bear with it at close range using a 320 gr hard lead bear load. I swear the thing laughed at me. It was a spine shot, and it didn't sever the spine. It just bounced along the backbone and stuck in the base of the skull. The bear was still alive for another 10 minutes after that. This is after taking 5 rounds from a 300 winmag. That was a black bear. Every round was in a vital zone. Every round was a kill shot....it just took a while. Both lungs had holes in them, the heart had a shot through it, both shoulder blades were blown out and one front elbow. Of course we grow them big in Alaska....but don't ever discount a bear.

Here's a picture of the gun, and another of the bullet recovered from the base of the scull.




No firearm will do you any good at all if you don't have quick/instant access to it. I like a drop-leg tac carry. I also bring along a sportsman's carry. I never leave my only firearm in a pack. You can become separated from your pack....

Finding a drop leg that worked with my 329pd was hard....but finding one for a glock is easy. Another consideration. I'd strongly consider a 10mm glock.

I remember being told a similar story by a fellow hunting grizzlies. The bear's heart was destroyed and both lungs were shot, but the thing kept fighting -- literally. It mauled one of the guys pretty bad.

glad you survived

tk