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Just because you can,
doesn't mean you should
posted Hide Post
The real problem has been this incredibly complex and expensive hybrid formula. The penalties are just an effort to control the cost by requiring some longevity in the powerplant and gearbox.
They started this penalty system back when conventional engines were used and it just made the cars much more reliable because everyone knew how to make them last for the time required. Watch a race from 20 years ago in any of those series and you'll see all the engine blowups.
NASCAR and Indycar have similar penalty rules and it reduced their engine failures to almost nothing too.
Budgets are getting tighter across the board and trying to save money is a necessity. Unfortunately the hybrid rules have had all sorts of unintended consequences.
 
Posts: 3324 | Location: North GA | Registered: August 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You reminded me of a problem NASCAR had years ago. Guys like Smokey Yunick were pretty good at building Qualifying Engines, good for five laps and gobs of extra power, which would blow up on the last qualifying lap and be replaced for the race.

When the restrictor plates became the rule on the longer tracks, the mechanics managed to come up with a hybrid material to make them out of, which disintegrated in the air stream when the motor was running fast. Again, a couple quick laps, then the disintegrated material would cause the motor to blow. Plates used during the race met NASCAR's rules.


--------------------------
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
-- H L Mencken
 
Posts: 6872 | Location: Illinois farm country | Registered: November 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Right, but from what I've read, it seems it isn't really cutting costs, as they're still spending time/money dyno testing components to try to get the longevity out of them. And they're still going over the engine limit & taking the grid penalties.

A team like Red Bull isn't going to sit out for a race over taking a grid penalty. So it's not effectively restricting costs.

If the other article I read about Porsche considering a return as a supplier is right, and they're going to a TT V6 with less hybrid tech, that may cut costs.




The Enemy's gate is down.
 
Posts: 5148 | Location: Spring, TX | Registered: July 11, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Just because you can,
doesn't mean you should
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I didn't say it actually did cut costs. That was the idea when they made the rule.
The engine reliability has improved a bunch however. Just look at a results sheet from 15-30 years ago and see how many fell DNF'ed due to engine failure. Before the restrictions they ran a new engine for every race and often a different engine for qualifying.
 
Posts: 3324 | Location: North GA | Registered: August 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 220-9er:
...Before the restrictions they ran a new engine for every race and often a different engine for qualifying.

I seem to remember that teams like Ferrari had a minimum of seven motors per car: One in the car, three in crates, and three at the factory being rebuilt.


--------------------------
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
-- H L Mencken
 
Posts: 6872 | Location: Illinois farm country | Registered: November 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Just because you can,
doesn't mean you should
posted Hide Post
quote:
When the restrictor plates became the rule on the longer tracks, the mechanics managed to come up with a hybrid material to make them out of, which disintegrated in the air stream when the motor was running fast. Again, a couple quick laps, then the disintegrated material would cause the motor to blow. Plates used during the race met NASCAR's rules.


I'm not sure where that came from.
The officials provide the plates and monitor the installation and can inspect them anytime they want.
 
Posts: 3324 | Location: North GA | Registered: August 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Agreed again, wasn't trying to mince your words.

Issue with the quick change engines is that I don't really think it's possible anymore. What teams could do in a couple hours then, takes 2-3 times as long now, with all the other tech stuffed in there.




The Enemy's gate is down.
 
Posts: 5148 | Location: Spring, TX | Registered: July 11, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Just because you can,
doesn't mean you should
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quote:
Originally posted by newtoSig765:
quote:
Originally posted by 220-9er:
...Before the restrictions they ran a new engine for every race and often a different engine for qualifying.

I seem to remember that teams like Ferrari had a minimum of seven motors per car: One in the car, three in crates, and three at the factory being rebuilt.


Don't forget about the one in the spare, ready to go, car too. Each driver had two cars and after a starting line crash they could jump in the backup if the race hadn't completed a lap.
 
Posts: 3324 | Location: North GA | Registered: August 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 220-9er:
quote:
When the restrictor plates became the rule on the longer tracks, the mechanics managed to come up with a hybrid material to make them out of, which disintegrated...


I'm not sure where that came from.
The officials provide the plates and monitor the installation and can inspect them anytime they want.

Yeah, now they do that, because of the disintegrating plates used by some of the "creative" types when the plates were first mandated. I'm talking 1970's era.


--------------------------
Every normal man must be tempted, at times, to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats.
-- H L Mencken
 
Posts: 6872 | Location: Illinois farm country | Registered: November 15, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fire begets Fire
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quote:
Originally posted by 220-9er:
I didn't say it actually did cut costs. That was the idea when they made the rule.
The engine reliability has improved a bunch however. Just look at a results sheet from 15-30 years ago and see how many fell DNF'ed due to engine failure. Before the restrictions they ran a new engine for every race and often a different engine for qualifying.


The new 1.6 liter engines are not even close to running full rpm due to fuel flow restrictions. Another idiotic rule which started teams using oil as fuel. So much for "clean" energy.

Let's not even start on the massive disparity in $$$ distribution to teams each year. Ferrari makes a butt load whether they win or not. <roll eyes>





"Pacifism is a shifty doctrine under which a man accepts the benefits of the social group without being willing to pay - and claims a halo for his dishonesty."
~Robert A. Heinlein
 
Posts: 22746 | Location: Row 2F | Registered: February 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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IIRC, they're shifting around 12k, but current regs allow for 15k RPM. There's just no extra power over 12k with the fuel flow limits, so no point in going higher.


Bring back the 20k V10 banshees!




The Enemy's gate is down.
 
Posts: 5148 | Location: Spring, TX | Registered: July 11, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
thin skin can't win
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On a positive note, Perez and Ocon finished far apart.

I love the new pissed off Alonso. Looking forward to seeing him in IRL next year..... Razz



You only have integrity once. - imprezaguy02

 
Posts: 7508 | Location: Madison, MS | Registered: December 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Just because you can,
doesn't mean you should
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The rumor mill is heating up that Sainz is heading to Renault as part of the engine swap with McLaren. Maybe in the next few races.
Palmer is likely going to be washing dishes in the Renault hospitality area, too bad Kvyat isn't there with him. I guess Vladimir wouldn't be happy to see that happen.
 
Posts: 3324 | Location: North GA | Registered: August 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Appears to be confirmed?

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/...en-honda-951146/amp/

quote:

Carlos Sainz has signed a deal to join Renault, Motorsport.com has learned, in a move that will trigger a series of dominos to secure McLaren the French car manufacturer’s engine for 2018.

While news of McLaren’s progress in its efforts to switch from Honda engines has not been forthcoming in public, behind-the-scenes developments appear to show it has succeeded.

High level sources have confirmed that Sainz’s deal has been agreed as part of a sweetener for Renault to end its Toro Rosso contract early.

With the Sainz deal agreed, that has opened the way for Toro Rosso to finalise a switch to Honda engines next year, which in turn ensures McLaren gets hold of its supply of customer Renaults for 2018.


More at the above link. Goes on to speculate that Pierre Gasly will possibly get the STR seat. Also for STR to go Honda power in 2018 & McLaren to go to Renault PUs.




The Enemy's gate is down.
 
Posts: 5148 | Location: Spring, TX | Registered: July 11, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Just because you can,
doesn't mean you should
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by P250UA5:
Appears to be confirmed?

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/...en-honda-951146/amp/

quote:

Carlos Sainz has signed a deal to join Renault, Motorsport.com has learned, in a move that will trigger a series of dominos to secure McLaren the French car manufacturer’s engine for 2018.

While news of McLaren’s progress in its efforts to switch from Honda engines has not been forthcoming in public, behind-the-scenes developments appear to show it has succeeded.

High level sources have confirmed that Sainz’s deal has been agreed as part of a sweetener for Renault to end its Toro Rosso contract early.

With the Sainz deal agreed, that has opened the way for Toro Rosso to finalise a switch to Honda engines next year, which in turn ensures McLaren gets hold of its supply of customer Renaults for 2018.


More at the above link. Goes on to speculate that Pierre Gasly will possibly get the STR seat. Also for STR to go Honda power in 2018 & McLaren to go to Renault PUs.


Yup. Still speculation.
Not doubting it, just have seen the British press make our tabloids look like reliable sources.

http:
//www.planetf1.com/news/sainz-keeping-quiet-on-imminent-renault-move/
 
Posts: 3324 | Location: North GA | Registered: August 22, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It'd be a shame if Honda gets it dialed in for '18 & has a good package, after McLaren jumps to Renault.
If the speculation holds true, STR would be solo on Honda power.




The Enemy's gate is down.
 
Posts: 5148 | Location: Spring, TX | Registered: July 11, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Confirmed:

http://www.thedrive.com/accele...ormula-1-partnership
quote:
It's the end of an era. After three seasons of heartache and turmoil between McLaren and Honda, the two have officially decided to end their F1 partnership after 2017.

Constant issues have plagued McLaren from competing since the pair rejoined in 2015, failing to mimic the success the two had in Formula One in the 1980s. It's understood that Honda will supply engines to Toro Rosso next season, with McLaren and Renault signing a deal that lasts through the 2020 season.

Sources close to the deal notified Motorsport.comof the split, a decision that was made after the duo failed to capture a win or podium since 2015. This was viewed as a necessary move by many within the McLaren organization with aggravated officials and star driver Fernando Alonso expressing their frustration repeatedly.

This, in turn, leads McLaren to its only logical partner, Renault. It was reported last week that the two were in talks of a deal—and after Carlos Sainz Jr. signed with Renault in a long and convoluted trade, it's now been made official.

The new partnership will end after the 2020 season, just short of when Formula One intends to release new engine regulations in 2021. This will potentially put McLaren on par with rival Red Bull, a team that also uses Renault engine supply and is third in this year's Constructors' Title race.

It's understood that McLaren could potentially develop its own powerplantsonce this engine regulation cycle expires, depending on its future with the French manufacturer. Though marginally more competitive than Honda, Renault has proven to be somewhat unreliable in 2017, with both members from its works team as well as its customer team, Red Bull, suffering from mechanical issues.

The decision to drop Honda in favor of Renault could help to land an extension with Alonso, McLaren hopes, as the team said earlier in the year that it would "do everything" to keep him on board after 2017. The double world champion has made note of his irritation with the McLaren-Honda relationship, so this could be a step in the right direction for the two. Alonso announced earlier on that he will make his decision by the end of September.




The Enemy's gate is down.
 
Posts: 5148 | Location: Spring, TX | Registered: July 11, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
thin skin can't win
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quote:
could help to land an extension with Alonso,


Ummmmm, no.

I don't think even another trailer-load of money will make that happen.



You only have integrity once. - imprezaguy02

 
Posts: 7508 | Location: Madison, MS | Registered: December 10, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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STR Signs 3 year deal with Honda

quote:
Toro Rosso has agreed a three-year deal with Honda for a supply of the Japanese manufacturer's Formula 1 engines, starting next season, Autosport has learned.

Earlier this year Red Bull and Honda first began talks regarding an engine supply for Toro Rosso, which has run Renault power this season.

Honda was keen to take on a second team after its Sauber arrangement fell through, but discussions over Toro Rosso broke down during the summer.

However, McLaren's desire to end its relationship with Honda revived the deal, with McLaren requiring Toro Rosso to part with Renault to free up a supply of the French manufacturer's engines.

Following extensive talks an agreement has been reached by all parties, though official confirmation is not expected until later in the Singapore Grand Prix weekend.

Sources close to the deal have confirmed to Autosport that Toro Rosso has agreed a three-year deal from 2018 with Honda, taking it to the end of the current F1 engine regulations cycle at the end of 2020.

While preparations for next year's car are already well under way, a decision has at least come earlier than when Toro Rosso agreed a switch from Renault to Ferrari power in December 2015 for the following year.

Toro Rosso's switch to Honda power means the outfit will start its third consecutive season with a different supplier next year.

When talks with Toro Rosso began, Marko told Honda chief Masashi Yamamoto he was interested in Red Bull switching in the future if Honda improves its performance sufficiently.

With the Toro Rosso deal now done, such a tie-up with the senior team in the future remains a strong option - especially as Autosport has learned Renault is working to end its Red Bull deal at the end of 2018.




The Enemy's gate is down.
 
Posts: 5148 | Location: Spring, TX | Registered: July 11, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
women dug his snuff
and his gallant stroll
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Well that was a disappointing start.
 
Posts: 10160 | Registered: August 12, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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