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Too clever by half
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I just finished Bourbon Empire by Reid Mitenbuler. For anyone interested in the history, personalities, politics, process, and marketing of bourbon, I highly recommend it. Easy and fascinating read.




Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig.
 
Posts: 9326 | Location: Richmond, VA | Registered: December 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
stupid beyond
all belief
Picture of Deqlyn
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Had a nice lineup last night. Ranked 1best to 5 worst

Bib n tucker (new one) - 5. , just awful
Eagle rare 17 2015 - 3 - its good just not 80$ good
Old forrester bday bourbon 2016 -1 wow really impresses i had the 2012 and it was okay. Suprises it beat out elliots, very complex
Four roses distiller select(distillery) oesf -4. Really minty and herbs as promised
Four roses elliots select LE 2016 -2. Good caramel and creamy



What man is a man that does not make the world better. -Balian of Ibelin

Only boring people get bored. - Ruth Burke
 
Posts: 6798 | Location: Kansas | Registered: September 13, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The SIG Kahuna
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Got snowbound Saturday in Rhode Island with a group of swimming officials working a meet at URI. Afternoon session session gets cancelled, so we head back to the hotel where, luckily, I had stashed a 2/3 full bottle of VWSR 12yr Lot "B". Managed to finish that beauty in front of a fire and TV with the Raiders/Texans game on. Burgers tasted extra good, too! Big Grin

Best way to drink nice bourbon - with good friends. Had to take an early nap, tho'. Razz

TTFN,
"Point Blank" Frank
8-)


I miss Erhardt!
 
Posts: 2708 | Location: Red Sox/Patriots Nation | Registered: June 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
stupid beyond
all belief
Picture of Deqlyn
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeTen:
Got snowbound Saturday in Rhode Island with a group of swimming officials working a meet at URI. Afternoon session session gets cancelled, so we head back to the hotel where, luckily, I had stashed a 2/3 full bottle of VWSR 12yr Lot "B". Managed to finish that beauty in front of a fire and TV with the Raiders/Texans game on. Burgers tasted extra good, too! Big Grin

Best way to drink nice bourbon - with good friends. Had to take an early nap, tho'. Razz

TTFN,
"Point Blank" Frank
8-)


Man wish i could smoke a VW bottle like that, i save mine a bit.



What man is a man that does not make the world better. -Balian of Ibelin

Only boring people get bored. - Ruth Burke
 
Posts: 6798 | Location: Kansas | Registered: September 13, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The SIG Kahuna
Picture of GeeTen
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quote:
Originally posted by Deqlyn:

Man wish i could smoke a VW bottle like that, i save mine a bit.


I tend to save mine, too - but it just seemed to be the right thing to do at that moment! Wink

TTFN,
"Point Blank" Frank
8-)


I miss Erhardt!
 
Posts: 2708 | Location: Red Sox/Patriots Nation | Registered: June 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Too clever by half
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Do you still have the empty bottle? People pay stupid prices for them on Ebay. Enough to help fund your next full bottle.




Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig.
 
Posts: 9326 | Location: Richmond, VA | Registered: December 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
stupid beyond
all belief
Picture of Deqlyn
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Smash the bottle or turn it into art. Also register it on that pappy site. I dont buy from 3rd parties but i dont want your bottle added to potential fakes.



What man is a man that does not make the world better. -Balian of Ibelin

Only boring people get bored. - Ruth Burke
 
Posts: 6798 | Location: Kansas | Registered: September 13, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Too clever by half
Picture of jigray3
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If you're talking a 15, 20, or 23 yo Family Reverve, creating a fake might, I emphasize Might, be worth it, but probably low on the possibility scale. I suspect most are for personal purposes to create a little harmless bragging rights.

Most bourbon guys hate flippers, and anybody fraudulently selling fake bourbon is pretending to be exactly that. But, there has to be a buyer on the other side, so why the sympathy for them? The market would not exist without the buyers. Don't the two deserve each other? Why should I destroy $50-$100 worth of bottle to protect them? Caveat emptor, AFAIC.




Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig.
 
Posts: 9326 | Location: Richmond, VA | Registered: December 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The SIG Kahuna
Picture of GeeTen
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quote:
Originally posted by Deqlyn:
Smash the bottle or turn it into art. Also register it on that pappy site. I dont buy from 3rd parties but i dont want your bottle added to potential fakes.


Register a bottle - where's the "Pappy site"? Does that include BTAC bottles, too? Eek

Not to worry - bottle already crushed in recycling bin. SWMBO says I already have too much junk in the Man Cave and throws stuff out before I know it's gone! Frown

And who would buy a bottle with a broken seal??? Just askin'. Roll Eyes

TTFN,
"Point Blank" Frank
8-)


I miss Erhardt!
 
Posts: 2708 | Location: Red Sox/Patriots Nation | Registered: June 09, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by GeeTen:

And who would buy a bottle with a broken seal??? Just askin'. Roll Eyes

TTFN,
"Point Blank" Frank
8-)


The seal is easily faked.
 
Posts: 2818 | Location: Peoples Republic of Berkeley | Registered: June 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
stupid beyond
all belief
Picture of Deqlyn
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yup, plenty of easy access to new foil tops and a hair dryer can seal it. Insert some swill and low and behold someone is getting hosed. Whether they deserve it or not for overpaying I would rather not have them in circulation. If I was Bill gates I would buy all the good bourbon I could at redonkulous prices. Breaking the bottle is also popular in the wine world where the same thing is rampant, scotch as well etc. etc.


Maybe these articles will change your mind but maybe not.

http://www.esquire.com/food-dr...-van-winkle-forgery/

http://bourbonr.com/blog/destroy-the-empty-pappy/


LOL geeten, I havent gotten there yet but theres a few empties in the basement not on display. hoping the mrs. doesnt find them.



What man is a man that does not make the world better. -Balian of Ibelin

Only boring people get bored. - Ruth Burke
 
Posts: 6798 | Location: Kansas | Registered: September 13, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Too clever by half
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I read both articles, Deq, thanks. Both indicate fakes are not a big problem. Nonetheless, you make a good point, but it seems to me if someone really wanted to make money selling fakes, printing the labels and buying new bottles to fill wouldn't be an obstacle any more than buying the foil caps. In fact, it would probably be cheaper and safer to make them from scratch than buying old bottles to refill. But, on the other hand, thieves tend to be both lazy and stupid.

I've never sold an empty Pappy bottle, but then, I've never finished one either - getting close on one though. I have a tendency to save the nicer/rarer empties, anyway. I have a decent collection of dead soldiers, at least until the wife starts making noise.

Just notified that VA has opened the lottery for Elijah Craig 18 and 23. ONly 192 bottles of the 18 y.o. and 30 bottles of 23 y.o. for the entire state. I have a bottle of the 18 and I prefer the ECBP by a wide margin, but I'll probably take either if I win hoping they might be better than last year's 18.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: jigray3,




Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig.
 
Posts: 9326 | Location: Richmond, VA | Registered: December 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Too clever by half
Picture of jigray3
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quote:
Originally posted by berto:
quote:
Originally posted by GeeTen:

And who would buy a bottle with a broken seal??? Just askin'. Roll Eyes

TTFN,
"Point Blank" Frank
8-)


The seal is easily faked.


Faked poorly, perhaps, but the Pappy seals are reportedly foil, not heat shrink poly. I did a little research on the subject and it appears the spinner machine to install foil is $1500 give or take, plus the foil would need a tell tale thin gold band top and bottom. Maybe there's a less expensive way to install foil, I don' know.




Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig.
 
Posts: 9326 | Location: Richmond, VA | Registered: December 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by berto:
quote:
Originally posted by arabiancowboy:
I don't know what year the bottle is, how can I tell? I hear the 2013 one tastes like shit, and they only got delicious from late 14 onwards. Truth?


You can tell which release it is by the proof.

Batch 7 – (Fall, 2016) – 130.0 Proof

Batch 6 – (Spring, 2016) – 132.5 Proof

Batch 5 – (Fall, 2015) – 129.7 Proof

Batch 4 – (Spring, 2015) – 132.2 Proof

Batch 3 – (Fall, 2014) – 132.1 Proof

Batch 2 – (Spring, 2014) – 128.7 Proof

Batch 1 – (Fall, 2013) – 134.4 Proof

http://www.bourbonex.com/forum...release-info-batches


Thanks for the list. Looks like I got batch 3, anyone have experience with it? I heard the later batches were better and the early batches undrinkable Frown
 
Posts: 1767 | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Too clever by half
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quote:
Originally posted by arabiancowboy:
Thanks for the list. Looks like I got batch 3, anyone have experience with it? I heard the later batches were better and the early batches undrinkable Frown


No question the first few batches of Stagg, Jr. were a bit of a work in progress to find an identity, and achieve consistent profile. I think some of it was the alcohol was so far forward, people hadn't learned to be patient with it, to give it time to breathe, add water, and allow the incredible flavors to unstack. Not everyone gets barrel proofs. This was actually a good thing, since it was not that hard to acquire early on. By Batch 3, they were really onto something, and Batch 4 was really well fleshed out, rich, and meaty. The nose gives little indication how explosive the palate is. Outstanding bourbon, IMO, and a really good value. Batch 5 is a bit of a regression, IMO, though still very good. I had plenty of back stock, so I skipped 6 and 7, but I am a big fan and will be looking for 8. Now, word has gotten out so a lot of folks here are seeking it out, and it has gone to lottery.




Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig.
 
Posts: 9326 | Location: Richmond, VA | Registered: December 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jigray3:

Faked poorly, perhaps, but the Pappy seals are reportedly foil, not heat shrink poly. I did a little research on the subject and it appears the spinner machine to install foil is $1500 give or take, plus the foil would need a tell tale thin gold band top and bottom. Maybe there's a less expensive way to install foil, I don' know.


The fakes are the wrapped bottles.

http://imgur.com/w8kTaFo

Note the gold band on the fake rye. The rye is known to be fake because it was sold as an empty bottle on ebay. The side by side was taken by someone who was duped.

Many people who chase the Pappiez but have never actually owned a bottle or perhaps seen one wouldn't know what to look for in a fake. Even those with knowledge have been duped. A few years ago I searched some Asian sites for Van Winkle and found multiple sellers willing to sell me cases of what they claimed was Van Winkle for well below U.S. suggested retail prices. The labels and bands in the ad were legit. Don't know what the delivered product might have looked like but given the knock off expertise and profit motive I'm confident they could easily produce fakes that pass the look test. The secondary market is very much caveat emptor and given that there are liquor stores that utilize the secondary market to stock their shelves it's best to know and trust your local shop.
 
Posts: 2818 | Location: Peoples Republic of Berkeley | Registered: June 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Too clever by half
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Thanks, berto. I agree the profit motive, particularly overseas, is enough to get into the fake business in scale. That's where I think the biggest risk is, simply because of quantity.

Wish I could see more of the capsule on the Rye, but boy, the color of the juice is all wrong. Out of curiosity, was this here in the states, and do you know whether the bottle and label were authentic?




Never try to teach a pig to sing. It's a waste of your time, and it annoys the pig.
 
Posts: 9326 | Location: Richmond, VA | Registered: December 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The fakes referenced are US and refilled and resealed. There were a few people buying empties on ebay for silly prices. Why would anybody pay above suggested retail price for an empty? Hundreds of dollars for an empty make sense only if it's going to be refilled and resold at some multiple. That's how the rye was discovered to be refilled.
 
Posts: 2818 | Location: Peoples Republic of Berkeley | Registered: June 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Oh stewardess,
I speak jive.
Picture of 46and2
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quote:
Originally posted by berto:
The fakes referenced are US and refilled and resealed. There were a few people buying empties on ebay for silly prices. Why would anybody pay above suggested retail price for an empty? Hundreds of dollars for an empty make sense only if it's going to be refilled and resold at some multiple. That's how the rye was discovered to be refilled.

Selling "empty bottles" via eBay and the like is, as I understand it, often code for simply selling liquor without a license - but since you can't advertise that...
 
Posts: 19714 | Registered: March 12, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 46and2:
Selling "empty bottles" via eBay and the like is, as I understand it, often code for simply selling liquor without a license - but since you can't advertise that...


Often the case though many bottles, including the bottle of rye, listed and sold as actually empty.
 
Posts: 2818 | Location: Peoples Republic of Berkeley | Registered: June 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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