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| Purveyor of Fine Avatars  |
I happen to like the movies set in the new universe, even though they're rehashes of old movies with updated tech and unseasoned actors (save Kyle Urban). So I decided to pop in the Blu-Ray and rewatch it. And I noticed something I hadn't seen in previous viewings: The Enterprise and the Vengeance have their little battle 237,000 kilometers above the Earth. When they lose power, they remain pretty much where they are. But after power is restored and they continue their fight without manuevering, they once again become stricken, lose power, and begin a freefall to Earth. They are literally closer to the Moon than to the Earth at this point (the Moon being 384,000 km from Earth). They shouldn't have gone anywhere. "I'm yet another resource-consuming kid in an overpopulated planet raised to an alarming extent by Hollywood and Madison Avenue, poised with my cynical and alienated peers to take over the world when you're old and weak!" - Calvin, "Calvin & Hobbes" | ||
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| Moving cash for money |
Well ok the L1 point for Earth/Moon is ~ 203000 miles. But you are assuming the battle happened some where along the Earth/Lagrange Point/Moon axis. If it happened any where else, in three dimensional space the Moon's gravitational force would not be greater than the Earth's at that point. "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout" R.I.P. R.A.H. Ooga Chakka Hooga Hooga Ooga Chakka Hooga Hooga NRA Basic Rifle Instructor Red Cross First Aid/CPR/AED Adult/Child/Infant Instructor Red Cross Wilderness First Aid Instructor | |||
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| Purveyor of Fine Avatars |
When the Enterprise falls out of warp, someone on the bridge states that they're 237k km from Earth. So that's where I got that figure. The entire battle occurs with the Moon in the background. This leads me to conclude that they've got to be under the influence of the Moon. But more to the point, they lose the ability to maneuver twice in the battle. The first time, they don't move while the second time results in an immediate freefall toward Earth. "I'm yet another resource-consuming kid in an overpopulated planet raised to an alarming extent by Hollywood and Madison Avenue, poised with my cynical and alienated peers to take over the world when you're old and weak!" - Calvin, "Calvin & Hobbes" | |||
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| Moving cash for money |
Agreed, but they may have been motionless only relative to each other, both slowly falling in Earth's gravity well. And it would not have influenced the Enterprise but the explosions on the Dreadnought did start on the port, up side from Earth, and would have provide an action for Newton's Third law to push it further down the gravity well. Then again didn't the Enterprise take phaser damage while in warp? So the whole physics/internal rules seemed not to matter much. "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout" R.I.P. R.A.H. Ooga Chakka Hooga Hooga Ooga Chakka Hooga Hooga NRA Basic Rifle Instructor Red Cross First Aid/CPR/AED Adult/Child/Infant Instructor Red Cross Wilderness First Aid Instructor | |||
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The Unmanned Writer |
The Enterprise was so friggin' big!! That brig was the size of two or three bridges. Movie directors doing space movies seriously need to look at an aircraft carrier to get a sense of size perspective with regards to quarters, weapons stations, etc. Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. "If dogs don't go to Heaven, I want to go where they go" Will Rogers | |||
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| Purveyor of Fine Avatars |
Vengeance did fire on the Enterprise while they were both at warp, causing the Enterprise to fall out of the warp stream. "I'm yet another resource-consuming kid in an overpopulated planet raised to an alarming extent by Hollywood and Madison Avenue, poised with my cynical and alienated peers to take over the world when you're old and weak!" - Calvin, "Calvin & Hobbes" | |||
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| Moving cash for money |
My point is Phasers are generally thought of as beam, thus light speed limited weapons. So they should not be able to fire at warp, or faster than light velocities. "When in danger or in doubt, run in circles scream and shout" R.I.P. R.A.H. Ooga Chakka Hooga Hooga Ooga Chakka Hooga Hooga NRA Basic Rifle Instructor Red Cross First Aid/CPR/AED Adult/Child/Infant Instructor Red Cross Wilderness First Aid Instructor | |||
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Official Space Nerd |
There are MANY things wrong with the JJTrek movies. They 'established' early in the movie that 'we are at warp so nobody can catch us.' This is despite the fact that many episodes of the REAL Trek, particularly Deep Space 9 and Star Trek Nemesis showed enemy ships overtaking other ships at warp. It's a simple matter of a ship at warp 8 overtaking a ship going warp 7.9. Phasers were shown to work at warp in the series, even though (in theory maybe?) light/particle weapons shouldn't be able to work at faster than light speeds. Torpedoes 'should' be able to do so, but they are shown traveling hundreds of MPH (at most) in most portrayals. If they were faster than light, you wouldn't be able to see anything more than maybe a streak of light before impact. And, yeah, to OP, that was STUPID the way they portrayed the 'enterprise' falling to Earth. If they truly stopped still in space (if that's even possible in real life), the moon was much closer, and its gravity would have drawn both ships in. Even assuming the Earth's gravity would have pulled them in once they lost power, what about all the debris? They showed a crap-ton of debris from both ships just floating there. IF there were this 'gravity problem,' then the debris would have fallen away first. And, it took the Apollo spacecraft 3 days to travel from the moon to Earth. They showed the 'enterprise' traveling that far (in a 'free fall, no less) in a minute or so. That whole scene was just stupid. And the HUGE spaces inside the spaceships are just ridiculous. I would say a modern submarine is a closer estimation to what they should look like. The JJTrek movies portray cavernous spaces all over the place, such as the brig, the dangly-walkways-to-oblivion, and the brewery/engine rooms. It's gotten to be nearly unwatchable for me. I finally got the video of the 3rd movie, and it's even worse than the 2nd. It's just explodey no-plot garbage where nothing even tries to make sense any more. Fear God and Dread Nought Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher | |||
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| Banned |
If physics were the only problems with the new ST movies, that would be fantastic. The vast "brewery" look of the engine rooms bothers me a lot, along with the hyperactive Scotty and endless battle sequences, kind of like the endless battles in the Transformers and any martial arts movies made today. I don't mind Chris Pike as Kirk, and Zach Quinto is a decent Spock, but his voice just isn't right. Everyone else is ok. The doctor was the best cast of all of them though. I didn't have to pay to see the last one, and I was still angry! | |||
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| His diet consists of black coffee, and sarcasm.  |
I had a bigger beef with a skinny white dude playing the bad-ass Khan Noonien Singh.  | |||
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| Member |
Did it ever happen in TOS? The "being overtaken in warp" thing. Remember that these take place (granted in an alternate timeline) years before DS9 and Nemesis, and IIRC even in TNG they talk about how warp tech is still being advanced all the time. So by that point, maybe it hadn't been done before? ---------- The first 100 people to make it out alive...get to live. | |||
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| I swear I had something for this |
Balance of Terror. The Enterprise at full warp could not outrun a Romulan Plasma Torpedo. Ultimate Computer had multiple Constitution class starships overtaking each other in wargames and "not so" wargames. To go a little on the extreme side, the Enterprise was being manhandled by Klingons strafing them at warp in Elaan of Troyus until they could maneuver at warp. | |||
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Lost |
I haven't seen the whole movie, so what do I know, but wouldn't the phasers still work "normally" within a ship's warp bubble? The Vengeance was pretty much tailgaiting the Enterprise when it attacked, so they must have been sharing the same warped space. Alternately, two ships travelling at the same warp speed would share the same relativistic frame-of-reference, so phaser shots between them would seem to behave perfectly "normally" (that word again). It's like the hackneyed problem of what happens when a vehicle travelling at light-speed switches on its headlights? Whether they turn on or not depends on who's asking, i.e. whether you're on the vehicle or observing the event from a stationary location. If the phasers won't work, then neither would the ship's running lights, or any of the interior lights for that matter. | |||
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| Unapologetic Old School Curmudgeon  |
And Khan would still be Ricardo Montalban because his wars were well before the time altering events of the first JJ movie so he was already in space when all that happened Don't weep for the stupid, or you will be crying all day | |||
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| Purveyor of Fine Avatars |
Mind blown. I don't think I've ever seen this point brought up before. "I'm yet another resource-consuming kid in an overpopulated planet raised to an alarming extent by Hollywood and Madison Avenue, poised with my cynical and alienated peers to take over the world when you're old and weak!" - Calvin, "Calvin & Hobbes" | |||
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| Official Space Nerd |
They explained away how they found 'kahn' before the timeline in The Original Series. Since the incursion of the time-traveling Romulans, they sent out more deep-space missions and found 'kahn' before they did in the original timeline. Still doesn't explain how he's a pasty white guy. I'm thinking that somebody named "Kahn Noonian Singh" would be a bit less British and a tad bit more Indian. . . Of course, this 'kahn' was a MUCH different person than the real Kahn in Star Trek II. In the real timeline, he was defeated by Kirk, and spent the past 25 years stewing in rage. His overwhelming vendetta and sense of revenge drove every aspect of his personality in STII. In this one, he is a lot less homicidal, though he really doesn't like Admiral Harrington (or whoever the guy is that unfroze him). Fear God and Dread Nought Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher | |||
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| Purveyor of Fine Avatars |
I remember that explanation; however, it still should have been the Montalban Kahn, as he still had already left Earth before Kirk was even born--way back in 1996. The alternate timeline should only affect events moving forward from 2233, the year Kirk was born during the attack from the time-traveling Romulans. "I'm yet another resource-consuming kid in an overpopulated planet raised to an alarming extent by Hollywood and Madison Avenue, poised with my cynical and alienated peers to take over the world when you're old and weak!" - Calvin, "Calvin & Hobbes" | |||
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| I swear I had something for this |
You'll hurt your head if you try and dig that far. Phasers are suppose to be at light speed like a laser. In theory, at warp speed you should only be to use them firing aft. Photon Torpedoes are designed for combat at warp speeds because they travel faster that ships at warp. But if that's true, then why are they so damn slow in every show? That would be a good reason why they would miss because they're going so fast they can't track their target like a missile. But if that was true, that would mean there would be consistency, and we can't have that in a science fiction show... | |||
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| Member |
I totally agree with the physics' of the arguments here, but where's the drama in that. After all it's just a movie. As far as the brewery is concerned I would not doubt that Gene Roddenbury would have done similarly had it not been for a low budget. It makes sense to have water to cool engines then again space is cold. Let all Men know thee, but no man know thee thoroughly: Men freely ford that see the shallows. Benjamin Franklin | |||
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| Official Space Nerd |
They keep saying these 'trek' movies take place in an alternate timeline, but that just isn't true. It's an entirely different universe and any similarity with the odl Trek that I know and love are purely coincidental. The pasty Brit 'kahn' is simply another example (along with the impossibly long transporter distances, Kirk/Bones/Uhura/Everybody else all being at the academy together, and other gross inconsistencies). Fear God and Dread Nought Admiral of the Fleet Sir Jacky Fisher | |||
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