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Watched the Moto 2 race. What a start. That was a hell of a pile up!


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Posts: 1683 | Location: Lake Anna, VA | Registered: May 07, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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You guys excited about the Italian GP?!
 
Posts: 16114 | Location: Winston Salem NC or VA Beach | Registered: April 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Of course. It’s the best motorcycle circuit on Earth. They hit 225 mph down the straight and there is a kink in it. Balls of steel to win here.



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You think Ducati will win on their home turf? That would be pretty sweet
 
Posts: 16114 | Location: Winston Salem NC or VA Beach | Registered: April 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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New lap record and top speed record from Ducati riders during practice sessions. I can’t wait to see them race!!!!
 
Posts: 16114 | Location: Winston Salem NC or VA Beach | Registered: April 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Excellent race!!!! Man I LOVED seeing the comeback kid Rins blow through the pack and work his way up to the lead briefly. The Ducatis are fast as hell on the straights. It was painful watching them pass Rin’s GSX-RR with ease on the long straights of Mugello.

I’m happy Ducati won on their home turf. Any race that MM doesn’t win is a good race. That Repsol Honda looked shockingly fast. That pass on the straight when MM went past both Ducatis....I wasn’t expecting that. It sucked to see Rossi and Mir go dirt biking and then to watch Rossi crash. I made fun of Rossi last year and angered a few people but in all honesty I do pull for Rossi. For him to be competitive at that age in such a brutal and absolutely unforgiving sport is incredible. I wish he could have gotten a good result yesterday.

Man those dang Ducatis are fast. I hope the boys at Hamamatsu can get the GSX-RR a bit more top end speed. They have a contender with Rins but they need to give him a more competitive bike.

Maverick. Man where do I begin. The guy does not do so hot in starts. He seems to have a pattern of decent qualifying times, decent start positions and horrific starts. When he gets that last part fixed he will be much more of a contender.

Great race!!!

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Posts: 16114 | Location: Winston Salem NC or VA Beach | Registered: April 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Some of the best racing I've seen in the premiere class for a while, especially the first half. Those Ducati's are fast, but Honda and MM93 has found something that equals their top end. Rins rode one hell of a race for sure. He just looks like he's not even trying to me. So comfortable!

Rossi chucking it was a bit of a surprise. Eek

Overall, my favorite race so far this season. Still have to watch Moto 2 & 3, so more possibly to follow.


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Posts: 1683 | Location: Lake Anna, VA | Registered: May 07, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yamaha is fukt again in 2019. Got the engine wrong yet again. The past 4 years have been an embarrassment. Suzuki will run into the same wall. The inline 4’s, whether crossplane or not, can’t make the power a V4 can. Even KTM gets this.

Happy for Danilo. And happy for a good race for once.



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Posts: 9469 | Registered: January 16, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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There is no mechanical reason why an inline four can’t make the same power as a V4. The power delivery, power band and how hard it is on the tires is the main difference. There is no denying that the V4s are fast as hell and great on a racetrack but I hope manufacturers don’t abandon the inline four in the premier motorcycle racing class.

I admire Yamaha and Suzuki for using an inline four even if they use a cross plane crank or V4 like firing order and don’t make that glorious flat plane crank howl.
 
Posts: 16114 | Location: Winston Salem NC or VA Beach | Registered: April 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by stickman428:
There is no mechanical reason why an inline four can’t make the same power as a V4. The power delivery, power band and how hard it is on the tires is the main difference. There is no denying that the V4s are fast as hell and great on a racetrack but I hope manufacturers don’t abandon the inline four in the premier motorcycle racing class.

I admire Yamaha and Suzuki for using an inline four even if they use a cross plane crank or V4 like firing order and don’t make that glorious flat plane crank howl.


Yamaha uses a V4 90 degree firing order.

The equivalent V4 at the same displacement does make more power. It's why KTM, Ducati, and Honda use the engine type. 2 heads are stronger than one and there is a torque advantage. Vees (I've owned V-twins, multiple V4's, and many inline 4's) make more power off the bottom, more torque in the lower RPM band, and they don't suffer from intertia torque like an inline does.

I would love see Suzuki and Yamaha abandon it in favor of a V4. Then we'd possibly get production versions in the GSXR and R1. The V4, in my riding experience is the best motor for a motorcycle. Then a V-twin, last would be the inline 4. The inline 4 is dominant in Japanese motorcycles because it's cheaper to make. 2 heads cost more.

There is a reason why Ducati and Honda choose V4's over inline 4's in MotoGP. And why Ducati and Aprilia choose them in WSBK.

Yamaha and Suzuki have to work much harder to make similar torque and HP out of an inline. It would be easier with a V4. Yamaha need Masao Furusawa back for consultation since he invented the crossplane design in the first place.



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I don’t think MotoGP would be better with all V4 engines. It’s a prototype class and development of more than one engine configuration is better for the sport. In Suzuki’s case you can see the movement of new technology tested on a race prototype show up on their production street bike with the VVT on the GSX-R, and they did it quickly. The investment Suzuki has in the inline four and its history is such that it would be just as risky to start all over with a new V4 engine. Especially when you consider how competitive they are now compared to only a few years ago. They would be almost guaranteed to have a throw away season or two again.

Both Yamaha and Suzuki have to find a way to make more power. I hope they can find an answer that doesn’t involve a V4 engine.

When it comes to changes in MotoGP what I would love to see the most is for BMW to enter the fray. As far as I’m concerned if you manufacture motorcycles and do not compete and win at the premiere level (MotoGP) you cannot ever be considered amongst the best. I’d love to see BMW’s engineers show us what they can do when they have to go up against the absolute best racing prototypes in existence. Kawasaki coming back would be cool but it’ll never happen.
 
Posts: 16114 | Location: Winston Salem NC or VA Beach | Registered: April 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by stickman428:
I don’t think MotoGP would be better with all V4 engines. It’s a prototype class and development of more than one engine configuration is better for the sport. In Suzuki’s case you can see the movement of new technology tested on a race prototype show up on their production street bike with the VVT on the GSX-R, and they did it quickly. The investment Suzuki has in the inline four and its history is such that it would be just as risky to start all over with a new V4 engine. Especially when you consider how competitive they are now compared to only a few years ago. They would be almost guaranteed to have a throw away season or two again.

Both Yamaha and Suzuki have to find a way to make more power. I hope they can find an answer that doesn’t involve a V4 engine.

When it comes to changes in MotoGP what I would love to see the most is for BMW to enter the fray. As far as I’m concerned if you manufacture motorcycles and do not compete and win at the premiere level (MotoGP) you cannot ever be considered amongst the best. I’d love to see BMW’s engineers show us what they can do when they have to go up against the absolute best racing prototypes in existence. Kawasaki coming back would be cool but it’ll never happen.


You haven't been watching this sport that long, very obvious. Previously Suzuki used a V4. In fact the last time they won the championship (2000 with Kenny Jr.) was on a V4. Their first 4 stroke MotoGp machine, V4.

You are rationalizing your preference for an inline on a street bike to a MotoGp machine. The two might as well be a 2019 car compared to the space shuttle.

I don't think it'd be a better sport with all the bikes with the same type of motor config. I'm saying if Yamaha or Suzuki want to keep up with Ducati and Honda off the corners, in low gear acceleration, and top speed down the straights, best of luck. The Vees make more power.



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For Suzuki from a business standpoint and a personality standpoint the move makes sense. They like to be different and/or do things their own way. (Especially if it can save them money) Sometimes it pays dividends, a recent example is their desire to recruit young promising talent and give them a shot at the big leagues rather than spend considerably more money on successful veteran riders. Suzuki has shown they can spot talent pretty damn well. Mav & Rins have had moments of brilliance. I think Mir will too. Is this mentality also why they didn’t develop a new prototype V4? Probably. I know Suzuki LOVED Winning the MotoAmerica Super Bike Championship and the IOM Senior TT and flying Elias and Dunlop to Japan to test ride the GSX-RR.

For some reason Suzuki made the decision to go with an inline four. I’m sure there are some benefits it offers over V4 bikes other than just cost. It wasn’t really that long ago that they made the choice. Rins doesn’t seem too handicapped by his bike. His qualifying times are his biggest issue now. His bike is fast as hell off the line.

I don’t see Yamaha going to a V4 until Rossi retires. Why? Because it will be painful. There will likely be a throw away season or two as the engineers and riders get the bike sorted out. By the time they get it fixed his career could already be over.
 
Posts: 16114 | Location: Winston Salem NC or VA Beach | Registered: April 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by stickman428:
For Suzuki from a business standpoint and a personality standpoint the move makes sense. They like to be different and/or do things their own way. (Especially if it can save them money) Sometimes it pays dividends, a recent example is their desire to recruit young promising talent and give them a shot at the big leagues rather than spend considerably more money on successful veteran riders. Suzuki has shown they can spot talent pretty damn well. Mav & Rins have had moments of brilliance. I think Mir will too. Is this mentality also why they didn’t develop a new prototype V4? Probably. I know Suzuki LOVED Winning the MotoAmerica Super Bike Championship and the IOM Senior TT and flying Elias and Dunlop to Japan to test ride the GSX-RR.


V4 costs more money. Two heads cost more than one. It's a money thing for the motor and their riders. KTM was in the same boat. They came in with a pile of Red Bull money, we're talking HRC like $. But they knew their bike isn't capable of winning a championship so better to employ some younger riders, because their salaries are cheap compared to the Aliens. Dirt cheap in comparison. This isn't really a new thing. Historically, a factory who signed and had plans for a star rider on the factory team would place them on a satellite team first to break the rider in to the premier class. Suzuki is doing it for cost reasons with their riders. Suzuki doesn't have the money HRC and Honda do. Suzuki's MotoGP annual budget is much less, as is Yamaha's.

quote:
Originally posted by stickman428:
For some reason Suzuki made the decision to go with an inline four. I’m sure there are some benefits it offers over V4 bikes other than just cost. It wasn’t really that long ago that they made the choice. Rins doesn’t seem too handicapped by his bike. His qualifying times are his biggest issue now. His bike is fast as hell off the line.


An inline 4 is easier to move around in the chassis for setup purposes. That's it. It's why the Suzuki and Yamaha handle better through the corners. They can move that engine forward or backward and easily change center of mass and weight distribution. The inline 4 has different mounting points so they can experiment moving it forwards and backwards in the twin spar. The Vee isn't as easy to do the same, it's more limited between the twin spar or trellis, in KTM's case. Power, torque, V4 beats it handily. A V4 you can still bring new chassis during the season with different stiffness in parts of the chassis. And Honda, Ducati, etc, the V4 mfr's, constantly jack with their V4's, every year. They change firing order and/or angle of the Vee in the chassis just about every year. A V4 can be made to be a screamer or big bang motor. And all the engines, despite type, they fuck with the crankshaft mass often. But at the end of the day, it's easier to make a V4 handle than it is get more power out of an inline. MotoAmerica (formerly AMA before Rainey bought it) and the TT are hopped up streetbikes. That's all they are. They can do a lot of things to them, but at the end of the day they are hopped up examples of what many owners do (modding their bikes, tuning them) just with a little more $. MotoGP is a completely different animal. Just like F1, every thing matters. The TT is a high speed road course. Engine type doesn't matter nearly as much with those average mph of their laps. Murican racing with glorified street bikes, just doesn't matter as much either. MotoGP is....well take just one example from this year. Ducati bent the rules, again, and put a spoiler on the bottom of the swingarm claiming it as "aero" when it's really there to cool the rear tire. A few races later Honda, Yamaha, Aprilia, damn near everyone has done the same. MotoGP is about tenths, so every little thing matters. But like I said, it's easier to make a V4 handle than it is to get more power (and be able to put it to the ground effectively) out of inline. The V4 power pulses put to the rear tire by each piston keep a constant hit on the rear tire for traction. It's why Yamaha and Suzuki both mimic a V4 firing order out of their inline 4's in MotoGP. In Yamaha's case, at least they sell street versions of their GP motors, as does Aprilia. Suzuki does not, their streetbikes do not have their GP bike firing order. Suzuki copied Yamaha with something similar to the crossplane crankshaft. Ducati makes a V4 Panigale, Aprilia a V4, Yamaha a Crossplane. Honda and Suzuki do not, they make their typical age old inline 4's in their products.

quote:
Originally posted by stickman428:
I don’t see Yamaha going to a V4 until Rossi retires. Why? Because it will be painful. There will likely be a throw away season or two as the engineers and riders get the bike sorted out. By the time they get it fixed his career could already be over.


Sorry, don't agree. And history proves you incorrect again. In 2004 Valentino Rossi went to Yamaha. Masao Furusawa gave Valentino 3-4 engines to test at the first test in 2004. Honda had banned him from riding the Yamaha before January 1st. Furusawasan made a screamer, a crossplane, and some other motor that nobody talked about, but it was a third engine config. Rossi picked the crossplane out of the choices, very quickly. Yamaha then made it ready from that decision in 2004 until the first race that year, in Welkom, South Africa. First time for them as a company every using this type of engine and firing order. Rossi won the first race on it in Welkom at the Phakisa circuit, and went on to win the championship. That crossplane motor has gotten them from 2004 until today. It's never made the most power, been the fastest down the straight, or the strongest off the corners but it was always close. It quit being close in 2016 once the manus had dialed in their bikes for the year, so close to mid way through 2016. Ever since, Yamaha just can't keep up in the HP/TQ wars. You can see two instances of that this year, with 2 different riders, on 2 different mfr's. In LeMans Valentino kept the first 3 in sight most of the race. He just couldn't get near the Ducati and Honda. There all race but never a chance of getting on the podium because not even enough power to get a tow and pass in the draft hard into the brakes into the next corner. Then this happened to Rins on the Suzuki at Mugello. Exact same thing and the same result. Either can win a race in the rain where that power needed, isn't. And they can win on a flowing circuit like Phillip Island. Even Barcelona, this weekend, the low speed corner exit demands of Lemans or the high speed needs In Mugello, aren't required. So they have a chance but the circuit still has a 1km long straight. So they can get fast laps during the weekend in practice or during a QP like Fabio did today by sticking a soft on at the end of the practice session...but with 19 races on the calendar this year, you need power and torque. Too many circuits where it's a make or break your ass deal. You can take a sweet handling bike and bust ass in the corners against your rivals but it's all for nothing if you hit the straight, or a low gear corner and get murdered by faster bikes. It nullifies your lap, and your race. You won't a championship this competitive being down that much on power.



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Posts: 9469 | Registered: January 16, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Man that was a shitshow, JL99 Mad


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Posts: 1683 | Location: Lake Anna, VA | Registered: May 07, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yeah. He took out both factory Yamahas and Dovi! One positive note (I like to always look at the positives in life) did you see who got 6th place!? Nice!
 
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JL knocking out Dovi was a pretty big boost to his team mate. Though I honestly doubt he intended to do MM any favors.

Can Dovi or Rins catch MM? Man I’d love to see one of them do it. That would be awesome.

 
Posts: 16114 | Location: Winston Salem NC or VA Beach | Registered: April 16, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Man that was a shitshow, JL99 Mad


Race was ruined for everyone in one corner. We had a real fight on our hands. Marquez was down on race pace, at least compared to other circuits where he dominated. So we were in a fight until the end with Marc, Dovi, Mav, Valentino, Fabio, even Jorge looked fast until he tried too much. Hope he gets penalized. That was a Moto3 rookie move. Take out one rider mid pack is one thing, a race incident. Take out 3 at the front, one of whom is battling for the title, or was (Dovi), gtfo.



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That’s racing man. Repsol Honda can’t be too mad at JL’s torpedo to the 2nd in points not to mention taking out all of factory Yamaha. Shit sucks but it happens.
 
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How close to the chest do the manufacturers actually keep the specs on these machines? Their actual wet weight and RWHP figure has to be available somewhere right?
 
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