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Fighting the good fight |
Sam's a thinker, not a fighter. He's a lot like Tyrion. He's got the brains, but feels like he needs to prove something by attempting the brawn too. They both need to stick to what they do best. As I mentioned in my earlier post, I think Tyrion and Samwell will do a good job ruling their respective regions once the dust settles, and they can leave the actual fighting to their bannermen. | |||
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| My common sense is tingling  |
This seems more appropriate here than in the edc thread:  That episode left me feeling like it was the next to the last for the series, so I’m really wondering what they are going to do in the final three. “You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.” - Robert Heinlein | |||
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Chip away the stone |
Tyrion seems to have the mindset to be a fighter, just not body for it. Sam, the opposite. | |||
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| Chip away the stone |
Buildup to a final battle, perhaps with Daario showing up with the Second Sons to fight for Dany. I'm seriously wondering if the whole thing will come down to who Bronn chooses to shoot with Joffrey's crossbow. My guess is it will be Cersei, or The Mountain, leaving Cersei defenseless.This message has been edited. Last edited by: rusbro, | |||
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The Unmanned Writer |
In the words of Ramsy Bolton, "If you think this is going to end well, you haven't been paying attention." Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it. "If dogs don't go to Heaven, I want to go where they go" Will Rogers | |||
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| Purveyor of Fine Avatars  |
Let's add some levity to this thread: https://youtu.be/DjTp0lfcgEE "I'm yet another resource-consuming kid in an overpopulated planet raised to an alarming extent by Hollywood and Madison Avenue, poised with my cynical and alienated peers to take over the world when you're old and weak!" - Calvin, "Calvin & Hobbes" | |||
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| Fighting the good fight |
Basically, the entire supply of Wildfire in all of Westeros has already been used. Most was used up in the Battle of the Blackwater, and the remainder was used when Cersei blew up the Great Sept. There are very few men alive who know how to make more, and it's a closely guarded secret of the few remaining members of the Alchemist's Guild. Plus it's a very long and dangerous process, taking quite some effort and risk to make just a small amount. So it's not like Tyrion could whip up a moat full of Wildfire in the Winterfell kitchen, even if he knew how (which he doesn't). | |||
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Bald Headed Squirrel Hunter |
The Night King and his army of the dead really needed to go. He really is a boring villain. He was almost as boring as Bran! "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine  |
Maybe Cersei wins? The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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| Member |
YEP | |||
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| Little ray of sunshine |
Thanks for the post, Orguss. The fish is mute, expressionless. The fish doesn't think because the fish knows everything. | |||
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| A teetotaling beer aficionado  |
Yes, for the main villain and antagonist to all he didn't have much in the bag. Yeah some powers and such but zzzz. Men fight for liberty and win it with hard knocks. Their children, brought up easy, let it slip away again, poor fools. And their grandchildren are once more slaves. -D.H. Lawrence | |||
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| Member |
A article on the Wired magazine web site has a critique of the good guys battle plan written by someone under the pen name of "Angry Staff Officer". It is worth a read. | |||
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| Member |
The Night King wasn't the main villain, Cersei is.
How about a link to your reference? | |||
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| It's not you, it's me.  |
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
https://www.wired.com/story/ga...e-tactical-analysis/ BY NOW WE’RE all familiar with the battle tactics in Game of Thrones: Confront your enemy head on—usually in some nicely arrayed lines—and hack at them until no one’s left alive or someone has won. It’s a tried-and-true method, with little in the way of actual operational depth. And as Sunday night’s Battle of Winterfell showed, it's particularly ineffective against an endless army of the undead. Spoilers ahead, obviously. As the 82-minute episode opens, the allied forces of the living are ready to make their final stand against the undead forces of the Night King, a paramilitary commando who leads a death cult with a penchant for destroying everything you love. In military terms, the Night King is the center of gravity for the forces of the living: If they kill him, they have a shot at surviving the horde of the undead. For his part, the Night King has an eye on Bran Stark, the S-2 intelligence officer for House Stark, what with his abilities to look backward and forward through time. Understanding his value as a target—he’s a good intelligence officer—Bran volunteers himself as bait to trap the Night King. The council of war agrees that this is the best option; it’s the only way to lure the Night King out from behind his forces. Plus, it falls into the hallowed military tradition of throwing the intelligence officer under the proverbial bus. So far, so good. It’s at least a plan. From there, though, the allied forces are a mess. Their first step should have been to establish an engagement area—a space in which they establish obstacles to disrupt and canalize the enemy so that they can be destroyed with direct and indirect fire. Using engagement area development, they could have used the time they had to incorporate a network of complex obstacles in front of Winterfell to slow and disrupt the waves of the undead. Instead, they left the field wide open. And what little strategy they did employ breaks down before the battle even begins. Take the Dothraki cavalry. Putting that squadron forward of the main line of infantry was doctrinally correct, but the allied commanders did not put it to proper use: screening the allied lines and gaining active intelligence on the enemy. Instead, the Dothraki are ordered forward into an attack before the enemy situation is even known. This move, sometimes known as a “Custer,” predictably ends in ruin for the Dothraki cavalry, who get chewed up and spat out in an unsupported frontal attack. This destruction of the cav squadron leaves the allied forces without their reconnaissance assets. Next we come to the issue of indirect fires. Any able field artillery officer could tell you that heavy-caliber indirect-fire weapons need to be positioned such that they’re both protected and mutually supportive of surrounding units. But the allies placed their batteries of trebuchets all along the lines, between the cav squadron and the infantry units. After a single initial barrage in support of the cav attack, they abandoned those mass-casualty producing weapons entirely. Had the batteries been positioned behind the anti-personnel ditch that protected the castle, they could have continued to execute both explosive and illumination fire missions. Yielding their indirect capabilities early left the infantry to fight alone, without the help of “stone rain.” Speaking of which: The company deployed both heavy and light infantry, with their leadership in the front. This single line could merely slow the wave of enemy troops, while ensuring that allied leadership would be overwhelmed along with them. Forming their lines behind some protective obstacles would have ensured a longer defense. Behind the infantry, the rear guard of the Unsullied ensured a defense in depth. And behind them, an anti-personnel ditch with chevaux de frise—anticavalry spikes—served as a protective obstacle before the outer wall of Winterfell. But placing this obstacle between the main body and the stronghold meant that a retreat would have to go through it, causing a choke point. After the ditch came the walls, then the courtyard—filled with situational obstacles—protecting the inner courtyard and the crypt. Women and children had been moved to the crypt, in the mistaken belief that this area would be safe. You might have noticed that we haven’t yet talked about the allied forces’ most powerful—and most misused—asset: close air support. At the outset, Daenerys Targaryen maintains two dragons for direct support to the ground defense and for air interdiction against the Night King’s single zombie-ice-dragon. While enjoying a two-to-one superiority in air assets, Daenerys attempts to use her dragons as multirole platforms, a risky move that means her forces cannot maximize their firepower on one single mission. This will eventually translate to ground commanders being denied close air support when they need it most. Both Daenerys and Jon Snow fly initial sorties over allied lines, but neither attempts to conduct reconnaissance of enemy lines. Nor do they attempt to initiate first strike capabilities against the forces of the Night King. Both loiter over the area for far too long before becoming directly engaged. Soon enough, the White Walkers initiate a whiteout, forcing both dragons to disengage. Failure to properly establish friendly dragon-marking measures almost causes a green-on-green incident. Perhaps painting alternating white and black stripes on the wings—as the Allies did before D-Day in WWII—would have mitigated this confusion. With intelligence failures, indirect capabilities lost, and the dragons experiencing white air, the full brunt of the attack now falls on the dismounted infantry. The undead quickly breach the first line of defense, then slam into the Unsullied, who fight a rear guard action to allow a rear passage of lines for the surviving infantry to attempt to flee to safety within the castle walls. At this point in the action, the ground fight is so obscured by bad weather that the fire-breathing air support cannot see the signal from the walls to ignite the anti-personnel ditch. With their primary plan unsuccessful, the allies move to their alternate plan of firing flaming arrows, which fails, and their contingency plan of runners, which also fails. As a last-ditch emergency effort, witch lady Melisandre finally activates the fire. The lit ditches succeed in marking the lines for a dragon sortie, which incinerates undead along the entire perimeter. Finally, the allies have established an obstacle between themselves and the undead. However, an effective obstacle needs overwatch with direct and indirect fires. Although archers man the walls with direct overwatch of the fire-ditch, neither they nor the dragons engage the unmoving undead. This is a clear missed opportunity. On the Night King’s signal, the undead breach the fire-trench the Soviet way: with their bodies. Only upon initiation of a successful breach do the defenders attempt to suppress the force. By then it is too late, and the assault force strikes the walls. Sheer numbers, as well as one devastating sortie by the Night King and his dragon, are sufficient to breach the wall. The undead offensive now reaches the castle courtyard, where individuals or small groups conduct military operations in castle terrain, or MOCT. At this point in the operation, all tactics and strategy go out the window: it's every woman and man for themselves. Lady Lyanna Mormont neutralizes one enemy giant with a targeted strike on its ocular network, but falls in the attack herself. In the skies, a dogfight—well, dragonfight—ensues, with the Night King making the unconventional choice to attack from below. The maneuver throws the friendly air force into confusion, and ultimately both Jon Snow and the Night King are forced to eject. With the Night King grounded, Daenerys rightly attempts a close air support strike against him. However, the battle damage assessment reveals that the strike was ineffective. Snow then moves to encircle the Night King, who raises up an entirely new army from the dead and undead alike. As part of this action, the dead in the crypts and castle also come back to life as enemy combatants. With no security element placed in the crypts, the civilians and logistics stores become a vulnerable target. As if that isn’t bad enough, Daenerys Targaryen undergoes her own Blackhawk Down—or rather, gray dragon down—as she is forced down to fight on foot. Jon Snow gets pinned down by enemy dragon fire and cannot maneuver. At this juncture, the White Walkers and Night King infiltrate Winterfell and move on Bran, their High Payoff Target. The battle —what there was of one—is basically over. However, both sides have achieved their end states: The Night King has isolated Bran, while the allies have drawn the Night King out from amongst his forces to stand alone. At this critical moment, Arya Stark follows the commander's intent: to neutralize the Night King. When she engages from above, the Night King blocks her effort, but does not see that this is merely a feint. Arya strikes from below, hitting the Night King’s vulnerable torso and killing him. The strike wipes out the White Walkers and the army of the undead, bringing victory out of sure defeat. While unconventional, Arya's attack falls into the clear confines of the allies’ overall objective, and she should be commended for taking the individual initiative to carry out the final plan. Had the coalition of the living actually followed the fundamentals of engagement area development, they might have had a fighting chance. However, since their opponent could literally raise the dead, they had to rely instead on a dragon wing and a prayer of “not today.” | |||
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Caribou gorn |
In the books, Varys and Tyrion know about one thing that nobody else knows about. Also, the Golden Company is in King's Landing. Is the show brave enough to drop Young Griff on us? I kinda doubt it as even people who read the books don't always remember about him and there was no talk of him back when Tyrion was making his way to Essos in the first place. I'm gonna vote for the funniest frog with the loudest croak on the highest log. | |||
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| Fighting the good fight |
Nope. Not only is there enough time (there are only 3 episodes left), the creators stated several years ago that this was one of the storylines they had to cut from the book to keep things coherent and condensed enough. Same with the huge cuts/divergences from the books' Dorne storyline. And Lady Stoneheart's storyline. | |||
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| Go ahead punk, make my day |
Agreed, I think we will have some surprises, but nothing that large. I think Ep4 will be reconstitution of the Northern Forces / trying to drum up some more support from Dorne / Second Sons / etc vs preparations in Kings Landing - plotting. Ep5/6 will be the battle to end all battles and it's aftermath. | |||
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| Chip away the stone |
Of course, a big battle doesn't seem necessary. Arya has the skills to get right next to Cersei and kill her, using the threat of a big battle as merely a distraction. If that's the plan, Qyburn may get word, via a traitor or "little birds," and lay a trap for her. | |||
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