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"Competition" shotguns have vent ribs; "Tactical" shotguns have irons Login/Join 
Member
Picture of RichardC
posted
Please, save discussion of shotgun mounted optical sights for another time.


I find this marketing to be interesting.

How/why has this evolved?

Are ventilated ribs too fragile to be tactical?

Are open or aperture iron sights too slow to be competitive?

What is the major advantage of aperture sights on a shotgun? Landing slugs on target accurately?

If so, at what distance does this become a significant advantage over ventilated ribs with beads, HI Viz or tritium front sights?


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Posts: 11517 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think ventilated ribs add weight to the gun so that's why you don't see them on tactical guns. I also think they make the barrel stronger not weaker,but either way the barrel is strong enough.

I would say with slugs would be the only advantage having sights on the gun would have and without a taller ventilated rib you may need them. Maybe over 20 yards. With trap shooting you only use the front bead/sight to line up the gun.
 
Posts: 19817 | Registered: June 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Frangas non Flectes
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It’s my understanding that vent ribs are meant to help mitigate heat ripples in the sight picture disturbing your view of the bead. Makes sense on a competition gun. A defensive shotgun, to my mind, is not something I think I need a vent rib on when a heat shield makes more practical sense in the event that I’m going to shoot it with enough urgency to get the barrel nice and hot. Ghost ring sights also give you more stand-off from the barrel than a bead sight, maybe that’s enough to solve the issue?

We don’t tend to see double set triggers on fighting rifles, either, and likely for similar reasons: nice for hunting and competition, but not really needed to get the job done in a fight. I don’t think it has anything much to do with marketing, or fragility. Just different tools evolved for slightly different applications.
 
Posts: 11636 | Registered: February 10, 2011Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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I’m not sure I understand the question/point entirely clearly, but something to keep in mind is that features on guns are largely driven by what the prospective purchasers expect them to have, or not have. No one expects “tactical” shotguns to have vent ribs, so that’s one reason they don’t.

There are also practical reasons, mostly durability and expense, for not putting a vent rib on a shotgun that’s going to be subject to far more hard use and abuse than being fired. Ribs do help somewhat with fast aiming on rapidly moving targets, but that’s not as much of a concern with guns intended to be used for self-defense against human threats.

As for sights, my agency has shotguns with two types: rifle type and traditional beads. If I were a hunter hoping for a 100 yard slug shot, I’d much prefer the rifle type, but for actual law enforcement applications, both types work equally as well. In fact, the rifle sights are more subject to damage and to their parts being lost. Of course, if an officer wanted to take a 100 yard shot with his shotgun, rifle sights would be better, but none of the LEOs I know would have any idea where a slug would hit at 100 yards and how to adjust his point of aim for such a shot. That’s part of the reason why patrol rifles are far more satisfactory weapons for most law enforcement purposes than shotguns.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 42077 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of YellowJacket
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The rib on a shotgun is primarily for sighting. It creates ablevel plane from the receiver out to the bead. It is ventilated to lessen it's weight. This is also supposed to dissipate heat better, but I belueve the reasons for having one are in that order. A hunting gun (people were hunting with shotguns way before they were competing with them) is about quick sight acquisition and a shotgun in a dove field or duck swamp could definitely be fired enough in succession to really heat up a barrel. I know, I do it often.

Iron sights on a shotgun isn't seen as much because shotguns aren't often employed for that sort of precision. You can not acquire the target and the sights as quickly.

Also, most people are taught to shoot a shotgun with both eyes open and your target is almost always moving. A bulky sight gets in the way of a moving target, especially with both eyes open. You are supposed to watch the target and point the gun with the bead in your periphery.

Optical sights like a ghost ring or red dot are much more similar to the bead at the end that 2-part iron sights.



"The frost on the ground probably envies the frost on the trees."
 
Posts: 9086 | Location: Marietta, GA | Registered: February 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
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If you look at what 3-gunners choose for their shotguns, they all prefer vent ribs and avoid 'iron sights' as you might see on a rifle.


The consensus, which I agree with, is that a vent rib with a front bead is faster to acquire and plenty accurate enough for a shotgun.


'Tactical' shotguns, frequently have drawbacks induced by the perceived need to have rifle type sights on them.

They aren't a precision weapon and they don't need precision sights.
 
Posts: 13595 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
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quote:

Are ventilated ribs too fragile to be tactical?

No, not at all. I've never seen a vent rib fail.

Are open or aperture iron sights too slow to be competitive?

Slower, yes.

What is the major advantage of aperture sights on a shotgun? Landing slugs on target accurately?

That would be about the only advantage. But a savvy shooter can accomplish the same level of precision with a vent rib. The real advantage of a rear iron sight is that it can be zeroed, and not all shotgun barrels shoot POA/POI with slugs, or even with shot.

If so, at what distance does this become a significant advantage over ventilated ribs with beads, HI Viz or tritium front sights?

Over 25 yards IMHO.




I love shotgunning!

https://youtu.be/xhSbdtlAMZU?t=59
 
Posts: 13595 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
"Member"
Picture of cas
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quote:


Are ventilated ribs too fragile to be tactical?


Theoretically maybe, in reality no. Perhaps for protracted day to day combat, but in most people's real life, no.

quote:
Are open or aperture iron sights too slow to be competitive?


IMO yes. Try as I might with different setups, three types of irons, two types go peeps/ghost rings, I'm always much faster and smoother with a rib.

quote:
What is the major advantage of aperture sights on a shotgun? Landing slugs on target accurately?


More accurate, and easier for the untrained, un-practiced.
I've hit 4" steel targets at 55+ yards in a match with the vent rib on my match M2. I also know where to hold off because it doesn't shoot POA at the distance. I'd MUCH rather have good sight and not have to hold off, but targets that small/far are rare, I'll take the rib every time as a trade off.


quote:
If so, at what distance does this become a significant advantage over ventilated ribs with beads, HI Viz or tritium front sights?


Depends on the shooter? A gun that hits where it looks is always better, no matter the shooter. Big Grin But at what distance it becomes a real issue depends on the gun and the shooter.



Also.. some people add flip up rear sights or shallow express sights to their rib for slug shooting.


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Sliced bread, the greatest thing since the 1911.

 
Posts: 17807 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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You also have to factor in what is readily available. Rifle/ghost ring sights are typically available only on 20" or 18" barrels, while longer barrels tend to have vent ribs.

And most competitors use long barrels combined with long magazine extensions on their competition shotguns.

So while it would be possible to have a custom long barrel made with a different style of sight, there doesn't seem to be an appreciable benefit for competition purposes, to justify the added trouble and expense.
 
Posts: 25098 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of pulicords
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I own a "Tactical" shotgun with a rib, that's very effective: Beretta 1301 Comp. I did put a red dot sight on it so that shooting slugs could be done more effectively, but whenever I've shot it at buckshot distances, the rib and familiarity that goes with it for me (I shot clays regularly) works fine.



"I'm not fluent in the language of violence, but I know enough to get around in places where it's spoken."
 
Posts: 9050 | Location: The Free State of Arizona | Registered: June 13, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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Is that a 21" barrel? I like the look of that. I can totally see how you could easily translate your clay shooting experience into defensive use with a setup like that. Familiar handling and sighting, in a shorter, handier package with a greater magazine capacity.

Tacticlay Big Grin


Y'know, with a quick application of some spray paint camo, that would also make a dandy turkey gun. Those tend to have shorter barrels like that too.

Turktical Big Grin
 
Posts: 25098 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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Police weapons don’t have to see combat day in and day out to have a hard life.






“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 42077 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Fighting the good fight
Picture of RogueJSK
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That must be one of them "45 degree offset sights" I've heard so much about.
 
Posts: 25098 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
That must be one of them "45 degree offset sights" I've heard so much about.


Big Grin




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 42077 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of cas
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Ribs act like car bumpers, better they get dented than your barrel.


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Sliced bread, the greatest thing since the 1911.

 
Posts: 17807 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm a Trap and Skeet shooter. The purpose of a rib on a competition shotgun is to provide a guide for point shooting the shotgun. The purpose of he venting is to reduced the mirage effect of a hot barrel. BTW, if just 1 or two people are shooting on a Skeet or Trap field the rate of fire can result in very hot barrels, hot enough to burn.

I'll also note that when shooting a true pair you can have as little as 1/2 second to acquire and hit your target. So using the rib as a sight just doesn't cut it.


I've stopped counting.
 
Posts: 4586 | Location: Michigan | Registered: November 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I just bought a CZ 712 Utility Model. It has a 22 inch VR barrel. I like it a lot. Williams makes a clamp on sight set for the rib I may try out.
Seems to be in the middle between tactical and competition.


End of Earth: 2 Miles
Upper Peninsula: 4 Miles
 
Posts: 10475 | Location: Marquette MI | Registered: July 08, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of 1KPerDay
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quote:
Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
quote:

Are ventilated ribs too fragile to be tactical?

No, not at all. I've never seen a vent rib fail.

Are open or aperture iron sights too slow to be competitive?

Slower, yes.

What is the major advantage of aperture sights on a shotgun? Landing slugs on target accurately?

That would be about the only advantage. But a savvy shooter can accomplish the same level of precision with a vent rib. The real advantage of a rear iron sight is that it can be zeroed, and not all shotgun barrels shoot POA/POI with slugs, or even with shot.

If so, at what distance does this become a significant advantage over ventilated ribs with beads, HI Viz or tritium front sights?

Over 25 yards IMHO.




I love shotgunning!

https://youtu.be/xhSbdtlAMZU?t=59
at 1:26 was that an unintended discharge?


---------------------------
My hovercraft is full of eels.
 
Posts: 2407 | Registered: February 27, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
"Member"
Picture of cas
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(Even if it was, rules wise it's fine. Don't know what set of rules they're using, but generally as long as it doesn't hit near your feet, leave the range, or happen while moving or reloading, you can ND all day long and stay within the rules)


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Sliced bread, the greatest thing since the 1911.

 
Posts: 17807 | Location: 18th & Fairfax  | Registered: May 17, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
...No, not at all. I've never seen a vent rib fail...

They do get bent up real good. Ask me how I know. Frown


-MG
 
Posts: 200 | Location: The commie, rainy side of WA | Registered: April 19, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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