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Is anyone using a pistol caliber carbine for home defense? Login/Join 
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With the vast variety of PCCs and arm braced "pistols" as well as rifle chambered carbines and armed braced rifle chambered "pistols" on the current market, the only difference between them that really matters is terminal effectiveness. For all other differences such as length, weight, recoil etc. you can mix and match to find a "rifle" that is every bit as small and controllable as a comparable PCC.

There is no getting around that terminal performance divide though. With a pistol caliber, all that matters is the depth and circumference of the permanent wound cavity. With a rifle, due to much higher velocity, we get both a permanent wound cavity as well as a temporary cavity that also causes massive tissue damage.

Some have mentioned the M1 Carbine in the PCC category. Nope, that is a "carbine" round and its terminal effectiveness (especially with soft points) is due to the fact that it is moving fast enough (near 2,000 fps) to get rifle-like temporary cavity damage in addition to the permanent wound channel.

So; how much is vastly improved terminal effectiveness worth? That depends, place them in the heart or mid-brain, maybe not much. Miss the heart or mid-brain by an inch or 2 (where the temporary cavity would damage them if enough velocity is there) it could be critical.

I'll pick a rifle round like 5.56, .300BLK, 7.62X39, 6.8 SPC or .30 Carbine (which is kinda in a class by itself) if I'm going to have anything resembling a "long-gun" in my hands. I know I can make that rifle chambered "long-gun" as short as any arm braced "pistol" or PCC anyway and recoil is not a real factor with any of these rounds.

OTOH, as I said before, 9mm sub-guns were the de-facto Tier 1 unit standard for over 2 decades...if you will do, they will do...I'd love to have a suppressed one some day!




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

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Posts: 4435 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I feel very comfortable with my CZ Scorpion pistol with an arm brace and mounted light. But I also shoot it more than any weapon I have. At least once a week.

I have had a nightstand pistol for many years and slept pretty well knowing it was there. But I made sure it was a Sig P series pistol that I frequently shot and the manual of arms was second nature.

I have been thinking about putting my 300 Blackout SBR next to the bed but I need to shoot it more.

I think that whatever you choose you have to practice with it enough to make it effective. The best weapon for the job is only as good as the ability to use it.
 
Posts: 833 | Location: Virginia Beach, VA | Registered: February 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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IMO, if you take into account most major Fed law enforcement agencies (HRT, Marshalls) are training to focus on head shots seeking immediate incapacitation(bad guys wearing body armor) etc. then for home defense the PCC has the immediate advantage of accuracy over a pistol and lower recoil/blast of a rifle caliber SBR for followup shots.

>70%f all shootings also happen with 10 feet so gaining proficiency with a short bbl PCC is much easier than shooting accurately (snot locker shots) than with a pistol and takes significantly less time to master and speed is significantly increase for the avg shooter.

Given these facts I think a PCC with an 8" or less bbl, and a shorter than 26" OAL are likely one of the best tools for home defense. If need be with a PCC you can also shoot out to 50' with much more accuracy than a handgun.


Joe

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Posts: 2237 | Location: Az | Registered: October 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by 280nosler:
44 mag 240 grain JHP from a lever action rifle count?

Just make sure you don some ear protection prior to touching one of them off indoors.

It gives a whole new definition to word loud.


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"How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy." Winston Churchill
 
Posts: 16315 | Location: Montana | Registered: November 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Blackwater:
>70%f all shootings also happen with 10 feet


Where does that data come from?




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 39944 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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FBI UCR stats estimates are <21 feet, but that is for LEO involved shootings.
A 5 yr study involving (IIRC) approx 500 civilian defense shootings identified most with 10'.
Not hard to understand why use of firearms in a personal defense scenario often involve contact distances vs LEO shootings.

We are talking about home defense, so the assumption was civilian defensive use of a firearm.


Joe

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Posts: 2237 | Location: Az | Registered: October 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Blackwater:
A 5 yr study involving (IIRC) approx 500 civilian defense shootings identified most with 10'.


It would be interesting to know what that was. I have never heard of any studies of non-LEO engagements. I would think that data would be very hard to obtain. Details like distances involved are very seldom reported in publically-available reports.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 39944 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by Blackwater:
A 5 yr study involving (IIRC) approx 500 civilian defense shootings identified most with 10'.


It would be interesting to know what that was. I have never heard of any studies of non-LEO engagements. I would think that data would be very hard to obtain. Details like distances involved are very seldom reported in publically-available reports.


Claude Werner. He studied 482 non-LEO self defense encounters over a 5-year period.



"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." Sherlock Holmes
 
Posts: 1266 | Registered: February 26, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by henryarnaud:
Claude Werner. He studied 482 non-LEO self defense encounters over a 5-year period.


Is that in a book, on line, other?

I actually would not be surprised that most non-LEO self-defense shootings occurred at very close distances. Despite what some of us are prepared for, I don’t imagine that in actuality very many incidents involve picking off raiders at several hundred yards, or even across the yard. Car jackings, home invasions, business robberies, and street assaults would usually involve very close encounters. It would still be interesting to read the details he provides.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 39944 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by arcwelder76:
quote:
Originally posted by GregY:
Little too much hipsterism in this thread for my taste.

I'll say I prefer my Sub2k to my 870.


I'm not sure anyone here is wearing skinny jeans.

What are you trying to say?


Too many people playing hipster games. Absurd one-upsmanship. Bragging about obscurity. Trashing perfectly valid choices that others have made because what *they* have is, in their own judgement, in some way 'superior'.

Um, no. Because an effective tool may be, in some sense, less effective in some ways than another tool, doesn't make it 'crap'. (Or that you'll die on the streets....)
 
Posts: 2328 | Location: MO | Registered: March 07, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by GregY:
quote:
Originally posted by arcwelder76:
quote:
Originally posted by GregY:
Little too much hipsterism in this thread for my taste.

I'll say I prefer my Sub2k to my 870.


I'm not sure anyone here is wearing skinny jeans.

What are you trying to say?


Too many people playing hipster games. Absurd one-upsmanship. Bragging about obscurity. Trashing perfectly valid choices that others have made because what *they* have is, in their own judgement, in some way 'superior'.

Um, no. Because an effective tool may be, in some sense, less effective in some ways than another tool, doesn't make it 'crap'. (Or that you'll die on the streets....)


Greg what are you talking about? Is there a specific comment you are referencing?
 
Posts: 2052 | Registered: May 17, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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As with most SIGforum threads, I see a reasonable discussion of this issue. There are the usual arguments and counterarguments, but nothing that could be considered “bashing” unless one is very sensitive, and yes, insecure about his own choices. I just did a word search and found only one poster using the word “crap”; no one else described anyone else’s choices that way. What I do often see, as in that complaint, is that some people seem to assume that others’ preferences are a criticism of their own that they must defend even if they weren’t attacked.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 39944 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Guys and Gals.
If you have a p.c.c. and can run it well or good. Your fine. Worked for years in old west and many places after with a lever gun and a revolver. Just remember jhp so no over penetration unless well away from others or breakable items.
 
Posts: 24 | Location: tn | Registered: December 26, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by henryarnaud:
Claude Werner. He studied 482 non-LEO self defense encounters over a 5-year period.


Is that in a book, on line, other?

I actually would not be surprised that most non-LEO self-defense shootings occurred at very close distances. Despite what some of us are prepared for, I don’t imagine that in actuality very many incidents involve picking off raiders at several hundred yards, or even across the yard. Car jackings, home invasions, business robberies, and street assaults would usually involve very close encounters. It would still be interesting to read the details he provides.


It's online. It's been a while since I've read it, but I believe you can find it on his blog, The Tactical Professor.



"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts." Sherlock Holmes
 
Posts: 1266 | Registered: February 26, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by henryarnaud:
It's online. It's been a while since I've read it, but I believe you can find it on his blog, The Tactical Professor.


Thanks.
 
Posts: 39944 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by SgtGold:
I almost never see? Limp wristing malfunctions.


Interesting you mention that. There are YouTube videos of people trying to cause malfunctions with SIG Classic line pistols by shooting them with minimal support and I’ve experimented the same myself without making it happen. I recently ran a qualification session for an agency that had just transitioned to new Glocks. I planned to caution the shooters about Glocks’ reputation for weak grip malfunctions and how it’s necessary to “lock” one’s wrist when shooting them (however one does that). To demonstrate what I was going to talk about, though, I first had everyone fire their guns with some wimpy training ammo while holding their pistols as “limply” as possible. I even had them bend their wrists so they would be completely unlocked.

The result? Not a single malfunction in the entire group. Hmm …. I guess we won’t talk about limp wrist failures after all.


We are a Glock only department Roll Eyes
We used to have 22s and the limp wrist malfunction was generally observed at least once in each training or qualification.
We went to the 19 a couple years back and it has lessened very much. Not sure if this is a caliber thing or something to do with Gen3 vs Gen4.
We got the 43 approved for off duty when it came out and we don’t train with it department wide but do have to qualify and it tends to have some limp wrist malfunctions too.
Myself included a few weeks back. It was balls cold and I had a horrible grip but still tried to get the round off. To which I did but had to tap and rack to get back in it.


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Or you can start over.
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Posts: 20581 | Registered: September 06, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Black92LX:
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by SgtGold:
I almost never see? Limp wristing malfunctions.


Interesting you mention that. There are YouTube videos of people trying to cause malfunctions with SIG Classic line pistols by shooting them with minimal support and I’ve experimented the same myself without making it happen. I recently ran a qualification session for an agency that had just transitioned to new Glocks. I planned to caution the shooters about Glocks’ reputation for weak grip malfunctions and how it’s necessary to “lock” one’s wrist when shooting them (however one does that). To demonstrate what I was going to talk about, though, I first had everyone fire their guns with some wimpy training ammo while holding their pistols as “limply” as possible. I even had them bend their wrists so they would be completely unlocked.

The result? Not a single malfunction in the entire group. Hmm …. I guess we won’t talk about limp wrist failures after all.


We are a Glock only department Roll Eyes
We used to have 22s and the limp wrist malfunction was generally observed at least once in each training or qualification.
We went to the 19 a couple years back and it has lessened very much. Not sure if this is a caliber thing or something to do with Gen3 vs Gen4.
We got the 43 approved for off duty when it came out and we don’t train with it department wide but do have to qualify and it tends to have some limp wrist malfunctions too.
Myself included a few weeks back. It was balls cold and I had a horrible grip but still tried to get the round off. To which I did but had to tap and rack to get back in it.



I have a great example of limp wristing malfunctions. My son who is 11 has just started to get into pistol shooting. He has been shooting a PCC in competition for about a year and previous to that was shooting an AR in .22 in competition.

A few weeks ago was his second two gun match (PCC and Pistol) at our local club. I let him use my M&P Pro that I've used in countless matches and practices with no malfunctions at all. Even in his practice sessions, he had no issues. One stage of the match required strong hand and weak hand shooting. Something we unfortunately had never practiced. He did fine free style and did surprisingly well strong hand, but weak hand, he had many malfunctions. Considering the history of the gun's performance, I can only chalk this up to limp wristing with his weak hand. After this stage he continued the match with no issues. I can only conclude that limp wristing does exist for some shooters with some guns in some situations.

As far the PCC for HD goes, I do think it depends on the skillset of the individual. In my situation in a home invasion scenario where my son had to defend himself, I would be much more comfortable with him using a PCC then a pistol. He is a much better shot with the PCC.
 
Posts: 1455 | Location: Richmond, VA | Registered: August 04, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Black92LX:
We used to have 22s and the limp wrist malfunction was generally observed at least once in each training or qualification.
We went to the 19 a couple years back and it has lessened very much. Not sure if this is a caliber thing or something to do with Gen3 vs Gen4.


All this is good to learn. I’ll be dealing with Glock shooters more frequently in the future.

Thinking back to an experiment, I have actually managed to induce ejection failures in a SIG P229 by providing no support to the pistol except to hold it on my cupped hand on a bench and firing it with thumb and index finger. (Caution: If trying this at home, load the gun with one live round in the chamber and a dummy in the magazine to check functioning; DO NOT have a live round in the magazine.) I could only cause a malfunction like that with 9mm ammunition; 40 S&W cycled normally even with virtually nothing to prevent the gun from recoiling freely and falling on the bench. I would have expected the Glock 22 to be less susceptible to the problem than a 9mm model.

Based on the limited range experience I mentioned, I wonder if Glock has been able to do anything about the issue with newer guns. I wouldn’t expect them to advertise the fact, but ….




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 39944 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by SgtGold:
quote:
Originally posted by bubbatime:
A pistol caliber carbine is absolutely the tool that the majority of home defenders SHOULD be using. Much better than a pistol, and likely more reliable than a pistol, in most peoples hands, that are likely to limp wrist or jam due to lack of experience firing pistols.


I most strenuously disagree.


If you disagree with what I said, then you are on the wrong side of the logic equation.

Reliable long gun is superior to handgun. Every time. In the context of home defense.

Sure pistols have their place.

Cops miss 70% of their shots when using pistols. When using long guns, they miss 5% of their shots. We can reasonably assume that an average home defender would have very similar hit ratio's. You can have the latest blaster 3000 pistol, but at the end of they day, in the context of a dynamic home defense scenario, experience tells us you are likely to miss 70% of the shots you fire with a pistol. If you are average (and not John Wick).

Now sure this a firearms board, and the folks on here are typically well versed in guns, and likely to perform better than average.

But like I said, the majority of your "average" home defenders are going to MUCH better off with long gun in their hand, be that a AK, an AR, or yes, even a pistol caliber carbine. Real life experience tells us that the first person that gets accurate hits on target almost always wins, 99% of the time. And you are much much more likely to get (fast) accurate hits on target with a long gun in your hands, than a pistol. Doesn't matter if you are Joe Farmer, Joe Average, or John Wick, you ARE going to be faster and more accurate with a long gun.


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Posts: 5333 | Location: Floriduh | Registered: October 16, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I recall years ago a similar thread was on the board. Someone suggested we take cleared weapons and try moving about our homes. I would echo that suggestion for this thread. It was informative for me. It's why I grabbed my pistol when I heard the noise in my basement. I learned that for me and my home, a pistol is clearly the choice for investigating strange bumps in the night.

So bubbatime, no, you're not correct in saying it is the superior choice every time. You're just flat wrong. I don't think we even need to argue that a one size fits all approach isn't right, do we? I tried it, and for me it is better to take a pistol when moving about my house than a long gun. Our homes are all different, our physical conditions are all different, everything is different. One night this weekend everyone should try investigating their home with a couple of different weapons.

I had my wife put certain items randomly around the house that would represent one of our children. I muzzled the shit out of "my kids" many times in the exercise. It scared the crap out of me. My gun has a weapon light on it, but it's a back up. A flashlight in my off hand is my primary means of illuminating what I'm looking at.

In going through doors and tight spots, I just felt like a long gun was too exposed and could be easily grasped or controlled by someone I didn't see around the corner. I'm not some operator, I'm sure I don't clear rooms properly. A pistol just felt less vulnerable to being grabbed in my exercise. I wanted my HD gun suppressed, that made a long gun even longer and more vulnerable imo.

I don't recall who here suggested doing a dry run with different guns, but it was invaluable to me, so I'll try to pay it forward and share that suggestion. Open doors, imagine a struggle where you don't see a bad guy tackle you or grab at you. Imagine you turn a corner to find your daughter snagging some Cheetos in the kitchen with no lights on.

The idea of muzzling a family member made me queazy. Off hand light was mandatory for me after that. Things suddenly come into view when you're using a flashlight in a dark house. One wrong shadow and a flick of the trigger and I could have killed a family member. I get it, don't shoot until you identify your target. But that pretends that we can control getting "spooked" and flinching. Your heart will be pounding, your gonna be nervous and a little scared...I just don't want to point a gun around when I'm like that. So how you going to handle your off hand flashlight and your long gun? If you're going to use a weapon mounted light, so be it, but I won't.

Try it with different weapons and then decide what will work best for you. Thinking about it in your head is nothing like actually doing it.


E.S. Dunbar
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