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addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer
Picture of soggy_spinout
posted
Seems more a longgun kind of question (even thought the gun is not), so I'm posting this here in the rifle room.

I'm looking for a laser to mount on a top pic rail over a receiver. I've had miserable luck with these things, managing to break pretty much every laser unit that I've owned (except for my Surefire X400 and my old first gen Viridian X5L). So any sage advice would be appreciated.

The firearm in question is a Mossberg Shockwave that I picked up earlier this week. So of course 12ga recoil is the energy that the laser has to endure and resist, particular when it comes to slug loads. Its mounting position is more or less dictated by the gun's standard stock configuration. At this point I don't want to change out the forend to some aftermarket design, and the Shockwave's 590 receiver is already tapped to accept a pic rail (which is already on order). So receiver mounting seems logical, despite being right next to Go Bang Central.

The key mandatory thing that I have is for the laser to have a green beam. From my own experiences red is near useless in any ambient lighting conditions above "low" (subjective that term, I know). My intent is for the laser to be placed right on the receiver's bore and as low as possible, so a combo unit is not particularly desired or conducive for that.

If and when the time comes to add a light I'd rather have that attached nearer to the muzzle to preclude any shadowing effect the gun may create. GG&G makes a nifty mount that's held in place by the tube magazine's end cap, and could possibly serve as a possible mounting point for a combo light/laser unit instead of just a weapon light alone. But right now I'm a bit concerned with how much obstruction any combo light/laser might create up front for obtaining a good hand hold on the forend, so any lighting capability is secondary for now.

Any advice is appreciated.
 
Posts: 7599 | Location: Drippin' wet | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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https://www.crimsontrace.com/p...-type-rifles/01-4620


"Fits pistols, rifles, and shotguns with M1913 Picatinny or Weaver-style Accessory "

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Posts: 8737 | Location: Florida | Registered: June 23, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Get my pies
outta the oven!

Picture of PASig
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My first question is why would you feel like you needed a laser on a Shockwave shotgun in the first place? Isn't that thing like a 3-6 yard point and shoot type weapon?


 
Posts: 22164 | Location: Pennsylvania | Registered: November 12, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Go ahead punk, make my day
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PASig:
My first question is why would you feel like you needed a laser on a Shockwave shotgun in the first place? Isn't that thing like a 3-6 yard point and shoot type weapon?

They'll be running at the "chack-chack" when you rack it.

You don't even need to load it! Wink
 
Posts: 35999 | Registered: July 12, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
posted Hide Post
I have no interest in a Shockwave-type shotgun or—normally—laser designators on firearms. If there was ever a legitimate reason for a laser on a gun, though, the Shockwave would be the one, IMO, and that’s because such guns are so difficult to aim in a conventional manner.

Contrary to what the entertainment industry would have us believe, shotguns do have to be aimed to hit their targets. I have often seen shooters miss 8-inch plates at 10 yards using shoulder-fired Remington 870s with rifle sights and firing birdshot. At closer distances and with buckshot, and especially slugs, the need for accurate aiming is even greater. Simply pointing a Shockwave in the target’s general direction and shooting from the hip won’t guarantee a hit. Using a laser would allow the gun to be aimed without using regular sights.

Based on my own experience and what I have seen, using lasers is slower than other sighting methods, but a slow hit is better than a fast miss.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 37255 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by PASig:
...why would you feel like you needed a laser...

I thought the term was "frickin' laser". I didn't realize "laser" was a word that could be used on its own. Wink
 
Posts: 4971 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of PGT
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I put a DBAL-I2 on the only gun I own with a laser (my 18" SPR build that has no iron sights on it).
 
Posts: 1087 | Location: Leesburg VA | Registered: December 21, 2014Reply With QuoteReport This Post
addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer
Picture of soggy_spinout
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PASig:
My first question is why would you feel like you needed a laser on a Shockwave shotgun in the first place? Isn't that thing like a 3-6 yard point and shoot type weapon?

For home defense, perhaps. But I bought the gun for another purpose.

Early on a customer of ours put a laser on his Shockwave, set a target out at 25 yds and proceeded to blast little tiny groups...all because of the laser which extends the effective range of such a small big gauge 'firearm'.

With 3" magnum slugs it's about as perfect a big bear gun is going to get, I think. And the further out I can engage, the better the chance that I won't poop in my pants in the meantime. Wink

A laser gives me and the Shockwave a viable chance. Or so goes the theory.
 
Posts: 7599 | Location: Drippin' wet | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
With 3" magnum slugs it's about as perfect a big bear gun is going to get, I think. And the further out I can engage, the better the chance that I won't poop in my pants in the meantime.

First, 3" magnum slugs produce rather interesting recoil in a gun such as a shockwave.

Second, how visible do you think the laser dot will be on bear fur? Likely moving bear fur.
 
Posts: 4971 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer
Picture of soggy_spinout
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
quote:
Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
With 3" magnum slugs it's about as perfect a big bear gun is going to get, I think. And the further out I can engage, the better the chance that I won't poop in my pants in the meantime.

First, 3" magnum slugs produce rather interesting recoil in a gun such as a shockwave.

Second, how visible do you think the laser dot will be on bear fur? Likely moving bear fur.

1. Not fun. Certainly worse that through my stocked 500 with its 18.5" barrel. But doable, being that the elbow and shoulder joint take up (and move more linearly with) the bulk of the recoil rather than through a locked wrist with a traditional pistol grip configuration. The customer's impressive target gives me hope, since that's exactly what he was shooting. He claimed that he was sore the next day, but otherwise recovered fine. And he's about five years older than me. Ultimately I will see just how well I hold up when I take the SW out for its first test run. But I'd like to have a laser as part of the trial.

2. All I'm hoping for is a reasonable chance at point-and-shoot [edit]from the hip[/edit]. Green wave lengths show up better than red on darker backgrounds, but I suspect that the relative brightness of the ambient light conditions will dictate how visible the dot is far more than the color of bear fur. Spotting out with my Wheeler boresight green laser I can see the dot pretty well to 40-50 yds in gray overcast skies. Strong sun, not so far and not nearly so intense. But it's just about giving myself a fighting chance. I don't feel comfortable or effective with traditional handgun calibers, and I don't see myself hauling around a big bore rifle (which I don't own, btw) just to defend against a brown bear while also at the same time carrying a compound bow and the rest of my gear. The biggest problem is finding a decent and durable laser unit without breaking the bank, especially one with a pressure pad switch.

The logistics of carrying the SW over a handgun will be a big hurdle, but I've got a couple of ideas and a bunch of nylon and webbing to fool around with. Hopefully I'll figure something out, if I can get someone I know to stitch up my ideas on her HD sewing machine...bribery by way of scotch, I think.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: soggy_spinout,
 
Posts: 7599 | Location: Drippin' wet | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think it's a reasonable goal to attempt....

I hope you report on your results if you do put a laser on...
 
Posts: 687 | Location: Idaho | Registered: October 21, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer
Picture of soggy_spinout
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So in the intervening weeks since I last posted, I finally found time and enough trace information and got around to doing something about a sighting solution for the Shockwave. Pretty much bought everything on Amazon; with the laser it's more proof-of-concept than anything else. Frankly how good can it really be at $40? But the relatively cheap laser held up to the recoil of a handful of Federal magnum slugs (ten) and roughly half that number of S&B 9pc 00 buck.

Better yet, I held up pretty well though I was sore at the elbow of my strong arm for a day or so. My wrist wasn't so bad. And a bit scratched on my weak hand (more on that later). Unfortunately I was too slow to collect the target before one of my shooting companions plastered it with his Benelli. M4 snob...but me shooting out at about 25-30 yards the laser held up and performed better than I had hoped. Had no problem seeing the green 'spot', but it was getting kind of shaky towards the end. With how I did and the right scabbard to complement this thing, it WILL make it a pretty good bear gun, I do believe.



But things I need to address; the wrist strap kinda sucks (out of the frame to the right; sorry, my long gun picture-taking skills still suck). The edges that Mossberg melts to keep it from fraying are SCRATCH-crazy. Kinda stings when I come into contact with them. I also don't like the round profile handguard all that much. I'm itching to change that thing out; the Surefire DSF-500 unit with the built-in light looks kinda neat, but its normal retail price is MORE than what I paid for the Shockwave! Midway has it on sale which helps a bit, but even though it's more slab-sided than the factory piece there doesn't seem to be a good spot to place the laser's pressure pad switch. And even at $314 and change, that's still more than what I paid for my Shockwave.

I'm still on the lookout for a better quality laser, but so far I'm feeling pretty good about concept of this setup. Not that I've done it much, but shooting accurately from the hip has frankly never been easier, especially in light of my past relative shotgunning experience. Now I also need to figure out how to PROTECT the pressure pad from staying on while in the carry case. Always the little things...but progress is progress.
 
Posts: 7599 | Location: Drippin' wet | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
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If I lived in bear country, my bear gun would have a stock, and either high quality iron sights or a high quality optic.


I don't believe there is any way possible to put multiple slugs on target with a laser fro the hip, faster than a fiber optic front sight and a shoulder fired shotgun.



Just my 2 cents.
 
Posts: 12758 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Like a party
in your pants
Picture of armored
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quote:
Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
If I lived in bear country, my bear gun would have a stock, and either high quality iron sights or a high quality optic.


I don't believe there is any way possible to put multiple slugs on target with a laser fro the hip, faster than a fiber optic front sight and a shoulder fired shotgun.



Just my 2 cents.


+1
Laser = spending too much time spent looking for a moving dot when you should be on that trigger.
 
Posts: 2689 | Location: Chicago, IL, USA: | Registered: November 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by IndianaBoy:
If I lived in bear country, my bear gun would have a stock, and either high quality iron sights or a high quality optic.

I don't believe there is any way possible to put multiple slugs on target with a laser fro the hip, faster than a fiber optic front sight and a shoulder fired shotgun.

another +1

Especially after putting over 25,000 rounds of shot shells down range in clays games. Including a number of days where we would mess around trying to hit clays with shotguns "mounted" under the armpit, at the waist, from the hip, and from the thigh -- our John Wayne stations.
 
Posts: 4971 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer
Picture of soggy_spinout
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I'll keep this in mind while I'm hauling around my archery gear AND a long gun. I'm also sure a game warden will be pleased as punch with me carrying around a loaded rifle or full length shotgun during bow season. No, that ain't happening.

As I posted earlier the point and purpose of the Shockwave exercise was to find something more effective than a pistol if I were confronted in an...um...awkward situation with a particular kind of big furry cinnimon brown colored animal that's larger than your typical VW Beetle. Despite its relative length the Shockwave is small enough that I can carry it and still be mobile with all of my hunting gear. Since this Mossberg is considered a 'firearm' by ATF and not some kind of long gun refugee, I can make a strong argument that it's for protection and not hunting. So the Shockwave is it; along with a half dozen Surefire CR123s. Oh, and I'll still have my G23 along; certain things I just never leave home without.

See you all in about 5 days, or sooner if I can get decent cell tower service...or if Yogi or one of his cousins doesn't get me before then!
 
Posts: 7599 | Location: Drippin' wet | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Sigless in
Indiana
Picture of IndianaBoy
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by soggy_spinout:
I'll keep this in mind while I'm hauling around my archery gear AND a long gun. I'm also sure a game warden will be pleased as punch with me carrying around a loaded rifle or full length shotgun during bow season. No, that ain't happening.

As I posted earlier the point and purpose of the Shockwave exercise was to find something more effective than a pistol if I were confronted in an...um...awkward situation with a particular kind of big furry cinnimon brown colored animal that's larger than your typical VW Beetle.



Have you taken this combo out to see how rapidly you can put slugs on multiple targets compared to a handgun?


I ask that because that would be a halfway decent test of how quickly can you pick up the laser on a target in the daytime.


I don't see this combo as being in any way superior to a Glock stoked with 10mm, because first and foremost only hits matter.

It has been a long time since I played with a daylight visible laser so maybe they have come a long way.

If the sun was in my eyes and I just put down a deer, I don't want a $40 laser to be my primary aiming apparatus if a bear approaches.


But I don't live in bear country, so it is entirely probable I don't have the first clue what I am talking about.


I realize carrying around a slug gun would be somewhat of a pain in the ass. I've listened to the Treadwell audio so you can bet your ass if you find me in bear country I will have a 12 gauge full of slugs and a 10mm glock on my hip.


Maybe I'm only cutout for the lower 48. Razz
 
Posts: 12758 | Location: The Edge of the Ozarks | Registered: December 04, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
addicted to trailing-throttle oversteer
Picture of soggy_spinout
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Well it wasn't the most productive of hunting trips. It was cut short by a couple of days because the fellow I was hunting with had to come back early to deal with some emergencies at his business. And the wildfires put a literal stinker of a haze on everything. Getting there was an adventure; now I can understand how those big multi-vehicle accidents happen whenever a fire is near the interstate. You just can't SEE anything! It was made worse because we were traveling at night, and the headlights were near useless. But we made it but FWIW where we went after whitetail was just not happening; the stench of smoke and ash was everywhere and deer were just not around even though the trail cams that were set up a couple of weeks back showed some really nice animals moving through the area. Worse yet, on the way back I found out that one of my absolute favorite places for some quality outdoor range shooting was perilously close to burning to a crisp. A thoroughly 'meh' time. Though it was spiced a bit when we heard from a local that a bow hunter up north in Canada was mauled by a bear.

As for any of those more nearby big cuddly creatures that the Shockwave was meant for: we came across bear sign but based on size (and my hunting partner's experience) it was of the black bear variety. We never did SEE any however. As for the bear of the bigger kind: apparently we still weren't far enough north to encounter grizzly but give it another decade or so, according to some of the local folks. According to them grizzly are definitely inching their way south out of Canada. But by then I'll DEFINITELY be too old to be traipsing along in heavy forest with all of this gear I had this past weekend. As for carrying the Shockwave around; yeah I noticed it. No question that the added pounds made its presence felt. But at no time did I regret leaving my GP100 at home. I'd rather have six 12ga slugs as a stopper than a cylinder full of 357MAG.

One thing I did discovered about the laser on the Shockwave: it's actually quite easy to sight with in daylight. Playing around with it--since we had no deer to stick arrows into--I found that I can 'walk' the dot out to a target by sweeping the laser across the ground plane (and across vegetation, too) and follow the dot into the target. Part of it is instinctual by knowing where its muzzle is pointed, and part of it is the visual cue that the laser dot gives. Hunting off of a tree stand--now THAT would've been a pain to haul out...I now totally get the wonderful utility of ATVs--I could follow the dot into whatever I was targeting without too much trouble, and I could see the dot out to 75-80 yards with far less effort than I thought. However where I was set up there was a fair amount of tree canopy overhead so even when we had 'good' light it was mostly filtered, and when I finally spent serious time experimenting with the laser it was already getting darker and the lighting was even more subdued. Now there are drawbacks; up off the ground nearby branches and leaves do get in the laser's way, but then those could obscure conventional open sighting as well. Context does matter, and while the laser does work well enough it's evident that it's not perfect.

Other notes: the area where we established camp was more dense with foliage than I anticipated. If we were unlucky enough to have a bear encounter, it would be practically on top of us before we have a chance to SEE it. But that close, yeah the laser would be superfluous. Instinctual sighting would be good enough, assuming there was time to grab the Shockwave (or any other gun) before the bear was upon you. And yes, it did feel exceptionally creepy the first night. A burrito in a canvas wrapper...burr...

Unfortunately we didn't get to shoot the Shockwave during any point on the trip, being where we were and out of respect for other hunters that may have been around (based on the vehicles we saw, there were a few), and the big fire by my favorite shooting area. Now that I'm home I still have a few days left before getting back to work, though I suspect my honey-do list will take precedent. But hopefully I'll get a chance in a couple of days to hit a local shooting spot and give it a more thorough wringing out. My Mini-clip insert arrives today, and I finally got a batch of Aguila mini shells to try out.
 
Posts: 7599 | Location: Drippin' wet | Registered: April 18, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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