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Warning: Blown Primers with Independence/Federal 5.56, Lot number FC16B001-169 (Updated With Better Photos) Login/Join 
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quote:
Originally posted by lbj:
quote:
Originally posted by FDEinAZ:
Sorry to revive this older thread but a heads up for everyone I contacted Federal and I'm sending them a sample of 60 rounds to test. I had the same issue reported here with my first couple boxes. He said this was the first report of this issue on this batch to which I replied a quick internet search yields this is hard to believe. He was reluctant and after debating with the tech rep on why my CMMG complete upper on a PSA lower "custom" build won't cause blown primers because the "buffer spring timing" may be off, or that I don't need a gunsmith to clear my "custom build," and also that my chamber is 5.56 and not Wylde and CMMG didn't dupe me with stamping it 5.56 if it wasn't he agreed to sample some. It'll be picked up Tuesday and tested within 3-4 weeks. With how this rep was I'm not confident it'll get resolved but we'll see I guess.


Is this from the same lot number?


Yep, same one.
 
Posts: 48 | Registered: February 18, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Darn, sorry.
Send the rep a link to this thread with it's pictures.

They are over pressured in some way when discharged.


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Posts: 29769 | Registered: February 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by FRANKT:
Anyone had or heard of any issues with anything other than the FC16B001-169 lot that's eating el-beej's lunch? I have a few hundred rounds of their FC16B001-172 lot and now I'm skeered to light 'em off.


You might as well give them a try, all might be well.


_________________________________________
I'm a regular Claire Voyant without the dress.
 
Posts: 29769 | Registered: February 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by lbj:
quote:
Originally posted by FRANKT:
Anyone had or heard of any issues with anything other than the FC16B001-169 lot that's eating el-beej's lunch? I have a few hundred rounds of their FC16B001-172 lot and now I'm skeered to light 'em off.


You might as well give them a try, all might be well.

I believe I will. I'll let you know.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And it's time that particularly, some of our corporations learned, that when you get in bed with government, you're going to get more than a good night's sleep."
- Ronald Reagan
 
Posts: 5507 | Location: Pegram, TN | Registered: March 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of konata88
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Dumb question: if this is just assembled by IMI, is this a Federal compenent issue or an IMI issue? Or a third party issue; whoever supplied the primers? Could this issue exist with Federal branded stuff that used the same batch of their primers?

Is Independence only using Federal stuff? Or do they use compenents from other suppliers?




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 5809 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici
Picture of ChuckFinley
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A friend almost lost his life from an erroneously constructed federal .44 round. I avoid Federal whenever possible.




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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C.S. Lewis
 
Posts: 4027 | Location: District 12 | Registered: June 16, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by konata88:
whoever supplied the primers?


This overpressure problem is unlikely to have been due to the primers. Primers can sometimes increase chamber pressures, but not normally to the degree seen here. The blown primers are the symptom, not the cause.

I have no idea about your questions regarding the relationship between Federal and Independence. I will opine, however, that if we give up shooting a particular manufacturer’s ammunition because of a single incident, we should plan on giving up shooting entirely.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 36191 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I finally check out my Independence ammunition last night and my numbers are not the same. Now, I will have to look at my Federal.
 
Posts: 2277 | Location: New Jersey | Registered: December 06, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of konata88
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Thanks SigF.

I'm probably in the lower percentile on SF wrt variety and volume of ammo shot. I tend to stick ammo with I've tried. Federal and Independence are among them. And just wasn't sure how to heed this info: ignore outside of lot specific or exercise some caution with Independence, IMI and/or Federal products.

Sounds like no worries unless I've got some of that lot material.




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 5809 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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I and my agency have fired thousands of rounds of Federal and IMI 223/5.56 ammunition for several years. I’ve experienced a few dud rounds due to bad primers, but no other problems other than that one lot included a significant percentage of cartridges with dented cases (and which made no difference to anything).

During the ammunition shortages that developed prior to our current President’s first election manufacturers’ quality control evidently suffered and I recall reading about any number of complaints. Most of us just noted the fact and carried on as usual. I haven’t seen similar complaints in some time. I have a large supply of Federal ammunition and although I’m sure there are other brands that are just as good or better, it’s what I prefer to use for training because … well, it’s what I have and it’s always performed satisfactorily for me.

I do recommend staying aware of reports like these as well as factory recalls, but if Federal or IMI ammunition was generally unsafe, we’d know about it.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 36191 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This lot of Independence is not dangerous in the sense the firearm will blow up and possibly injure anyone.

That said, when the primers blow when used in an AR15, it disables the rifle because of the primer gumming up places.
I have seen them stay in the chamber so another round cannot be chambered, but typically the primers for me fell in the action so the trigger cannot be pulled.

Both of those scenarios happening during a self defense use would be catastrophic.

I suppose I could have kept them for range use, but with so many primer failures bouncing around, the time spent at the range was mostly looking for the primers that jammed my AR15 in constant fashion.

I gave the several hundred rounds I had left to the Windsor Colorado PD who will pull the tips and reload them for range use. They were thrilled to get them.

I will probably never buy the Independence brand until they prove themselves to work properly each and every time.

I have bought current production IMI M193 and M855 and have had zero problems with them.

While the Independence boxes say Made in Israel, I am not entirely sure IMI loads them.
My guess is another vendor does.


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Posts: 29769 | Registered: February 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks. I've only shot about a dozen or two cases of ammo. Limited to just a few different brands and all 9mm, 223/5.56; some 22lr but ignoring rimfire.

Other than some cheap Wolf 223 (intended for range use only), never had any problems with ammo. I figured if I kept with name brand stuff from US, Israel and maybe Korea, I'd be okay.

So this was a little eye opening for me not to take things for granted. As usual, assumptions can be the start of issues.

Thanks for the thread. Good info. And I still need to check my lot numbers.




"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - B.Franklin
"Wrong does not cease to be wrong because the majority share in it." L.Tolstoy
 
Posts: 5809 | Location: In the gilded cage | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Aside from some old Communist block of AK47 ammunition, I cannot ever remember a time in my life the last 60 years where I had blown primers.
It was new to me.

Now I have 22LR duds, but if you spin them 180 degrees, they will usually fire that second time.
It has to do with the way rimfire is primed using a centrifuge or something and sometimes the primer material doesn't complete the circle, that's why the 22LR can be unreliable.

At this point, I am buying IMI M193/M855 as well as the Prvi Partizan (PPU) M193/M855.

I have had no failures in a few thousand rounds.


_________________________________________
I'm a regular Claire Voyant without the dress.
 
Posts: 29769 | Registered: February 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by lbj:
This lot of Independence is not dangerous in the sense the firearm will blow up and possibly injure anyone.

That said, when the primers blow when used in an AR15, it disables the rifle because of the primer gumming up places.
I have seen them stay in the chamber so another round cannot be chambered, but typically the primers for me fell in the action so the trigger cannot be pulled.

Both of those scenarios happening during a self defense use would be catastrophic.

I suppose I could have kept them for range use, but with so many primer failures bouncing around, the time spent at the range was mostly looking for the primers that jammed my AR15 in constant fashion.

I gave the several hundred rounds I had left to the Windsor Colorado PD who will pull the tips and reload them for range use. They were thrilled to get them.

I will probably never buy the Independence brand until they prove themselves to work properly each and every time.

I have bought current production IMI M193 and M855 and have had zero problems with them.

While the Independence boxes say Made in Israel, I am not entirely sure IMI loads them.
My guess is another vendor does.


This. One primer caused a FTE/FTF malfunction and the other fell into the FCG. Luckily I found it before it did anything but it was annoying. The sample is all packaged and waiting for UPS on Tuesday.
 
Posts: 48 | Registered: February 18, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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It will be interesting to see if they say anything at all.

I have a hard time believing IMI loads the Independence brand.
I guess anything is possible.


_________________________________________
I'm a regular Claire Voyant without the dress.
 
Posts: 29769 | Registered: February 20, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by FRANKT:
quote:
Originally posted by lbj:
quote:
Originally posted by FRANKT:
Anyone had or heard of any issues with anything other than the FC16B001-169 lot that's eating el-beej's lunch? I have a few hundred rounds of their FC16B001-172 lot and now I'm skeered to light 'em off.


You might as well give them a try, all might be well.

I believe I will. I'll let you know.

Finally had a few minutes to step out back and light off a few rounds from the above-referenced xxx-172 lot.

I did NOT experience any blown primers.
There ARE ejector impressions in the face of the brass, less pronounced than those in lbj's photos but still clearly visible.
There are NOT any impressions from the extractor cut area in the bolt face.
The primers ARE flatter than normal and shinier than "normal."

My "normal" in this case is a bag of old Federal brass, none of which exhibit any of the above markings.

Rifle is a Smith & Wesson M&P-15 Sport II.

Would I buy more of it? Probably, if it's all they had when I had a few extra ammo bucks. Side by side with regular old Federal? Nope, probably not.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And it's time that particularly, some of our corporations learned, that when you get in bed with government, you're going to get more than a good night's sleep."
- Ronald Reagan
 
Posts: 5507 | Location: Pegram, TN | Registered: March 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Finally had a few minutes to step out back and light off a few rounds from the above-referenced xxx-172 lot.

I did NOT experience any blown primers.


FrankT,
If you make it to ATL let me know I'll be happy to give you the ~200 rounds from the same lot # that I have if you'd like them.



 
Posts: 163 | Location: ATL | Registered: June 28, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by snipes:
quote:
Finally had a few minutes to step out back and light off a few rounds from the above-referenced xxx-172 lot.

I did NOT experience any blown primers.


FrankT,
If you make it to ATL let me know I'll be happy to give you the ~200 rounds from the same lot # that I have if you'd like them.

Thank you, that's a generous offer, snipes. I don't get back there often but I will certainly take you up on the offer next time I'm down if you haven't given them away by then. Are they from the same -172 lot number? If so, I really don't think you need to fear shooting them so don't give them away because of that.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"And it's time that particularly, some of our corporations learned, that when you get in bed with government, you're going to get more than a good night's sleep."
- Ronald Reagan
 
Posts: 5507 | Location: Pegram, TN | Registered: March 17, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So I got the ballistic results call today. While the rep wouldn't openly say it was way too hot he said it was "at the high end of the spec" and that they noticed "primer issues" so he is replacing what I have left with Federal XM193. He was a lot more pleasant with his tone this time. Should be picked up Monday and as soon as they verify count my replacement ammo will be shipped. If anyone has any left I'd give them a call.
 
Posts: 48 | Registered: February 18, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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Thanks for the update. It is always good to learn how these things turn out.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 36191 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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