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Freethinker
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A couple of Aimpoint T-1 sights with Era-Tac mounts on modern German army G28 rifles as seen in military sniper application.







Probably not for the purpose I raised, but interesting nevertheless.

The original video from which the images were taken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXCPzEg3NU8




“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”
— Thomas Paine
 
Posts: 43770 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
A couple of Aimpoint T-1 sights with Era-Tac mounts on modern German army G28 rifles as seen in military sniper application.







Probably not for the purpose I raised, but interesting nevertheless.

The original video from which the images were taken.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXCPzEg3NU8


One of the ranges I and a couple buddies shoot at quite frequently is used by various agencies for qualifying, training.... Over the last few years I've got to know a handful of them pretty well. They've shared with me poor gear choices someone other then them made. Taught me not to assume the guy behind the trigger choose that Aimoint Wink
 
Posts: 2974 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by offgrid:
Taught me not to assume the guy behind the trigger choose that Aimoint Wink


Although I personally wouldn’t have any objection to the S&B/Aimpoint combination based on my very limited experience with an ACRO in that position thus far, the fact that it was a German army adoption would make your observation even more likely. But such attitudes aren’t limited to Germans. It seems to me that it’s common for the guys involved in training and acquisitions who have a lot of time to sit around and think about such things tend to become fascinated with every new gadgets and gear innovation (I know that from personal experience Roll Eyes Wink ).

And, as I say, I doubt that the ERATAC mount and Aimpoint were adopted to make it easier for snipers to find their targets quickly. Europeans in particular have been more commonly enamored with backup sights on their military sniper rifles, and this could be a manifestation of that tradition. Or as I mentioned in another thread, such sights might be deemed desirable for close range engagements.




“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”
— Thomas Paine
 
Posts: 43770 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by sigfreund:
Or as I mentioned in another thread, such sights might be deemed desirable for close range engagements.

You continue to dig yourself into a hole. The military and LEO snipers I've trained with use their scopes, regardless of distance. They attach one scope that meets their requirements.

Ixnay on the doodads and concentrate on your shooting skills. That's what matters. You need to get off the internet and into the field, with other shooters.
 
Posts: 6863 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
You continue to dig yourself into a hole.


As much as I respect your knowledge and appreciate your useful comments, you don’t know nearly as much about military operations or military sniping as you assume you do based on your civilian shooting games experiences. If you have other qualifications, I have certainly not seen evidence of it here.

As I made clear by the “might be” caveat in my comment, I cannot be certain what motivated the Bundeswehr to mount an Aimpoint sight on top of their sniping riflescopes, but its use as a short range sight is certainly a possibility, and more likely than anything else I could think of. Whether you recognize it or not, military sniping theory and practice varies among agencies, and especially among different countries. What’s more, practices and equipment evolve over time, and not necessarily at the same rate everywhere. I clearly remember a time when US military snipers’ issued riflescopes were fixed 10 power and had elevation and windage adjustments calibrated in minutes of angle and their reticles were calibrated in milliradians. Today’s unnecessary or unthinkable can become tomorrow’s standard.

But as you are convinced yourself that the Aimpoint with ERATAC mount isn’t intended for close range engagements, just what is it for? G28 rifles are already equipped with backup mechanical sights, so just what purpose is the Aimpoint intended to serve? A backup backup?
If you have sources in the German army sniper corps I would be very interested in knowing what the correct answer is rather than my “might be” speculation.

This is a discussion forum, and that’s what I do: discuss things, and that includes asking questions and musing about things. I have tried to graciously ignore your gratuitous and often obnoxious replies directed at my questions and comments, but you keep doing it for reasons that are unclear to me, and that makes it difficult for me to remain civil myself.




“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”
— Thomas Paine
 
Posts: 43770 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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In December I attended a helicopter training course at Rifles Only in Texas. The course immediately prior to mine was a Marine sniper training course, attended by 10 of what I was told were among the best of the Marine snipers. The two Marines-specific trainers stayed on for two days into our course. We had many discussions over those two days on how the Marines trained and what equipment they used. They showed us a few pictures of the Marines in training, and I saw their equipment. All of the Marine snipers had bolt action rifles and one scope -- nothing else for a sighting device.

I trained with Nick Irving, a Ranger Sniper. His rifle only had a primary scope. He had a 30-something kills in the sandbox.

I attended a training course with two SWAT officers from Louisiana. They used LPV on their AR15 patrol rifles. No offset sights. They spent a bunch of time patrolling after Katrina.

I trained with a SWAT officer from Ohio. He has permanently retired three bad guys, up close with his AR15 SBR. Uses a red dot only.

Met a bunch of LEOs and ex-military shooters in matches. Try to pick their brains when possible.

How many snipers have you shot with?

You sometimes concentrate on the items/methods used by the 1 in a thousand or 1 in ten thousand. That's fine if the 1 is producing results head and shoulders above the rest. Absolutely the way to focus on learning in improving. But most likely the 999 or the 9,999 are doing what they're doing because it works the vast majority of the time.

From what the instructors/snipers/SWAT guys have told me, the last thing a person wants is yet another device to deal with in heat of battle. From the drills I've done in training, I agree. Average LEO sniper engagements are well-documented as being under 100 yards. Using an alternative sighting device means training with potentially different sight-vs-bore offsets. Definitely with different cheek welds. Possible with different buttstock-on-the-shoulder positions. That's not something the guys I've shot with want to do.

You can call this clutter, or you can read and learn.
 
Posts: 6863 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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Today I tested the concept of using the supplemental sight as an aiming aid during a drill at 130 and 200 yards at prone and kneeling supported.

The targets were small and positioned in front of a largely featureless snow-covered background. I have fired the drill many times before without the supplemental aid of the nonmagnifying red dot sight, but finding the targets in the highly magnified view of the primary sight has often been frustrating and more consuming of time that I’d rather spend on other aspects of the exercise than I like. Today, though, the time was much less and the lack of frustration was appreciated even more.

The value of using a nonmagnifying sight for preliminary target acquisition and aiming depends of course on various considerations, and probably not least on the shooter’s experience and skill at using just the primary sight. It is, however, an effective method and may be of most benefit to less experienced shooters such as hunters and under conditions that make target acquisition more difficult.




“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”
— Thomas Paine
 
Posts: 43770 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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