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Do you have an RMR type red dot sight on your precision rifle? Login/Join 
Freethinker
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posted
This is something I discovered just yesterday from a YouTube interview of a top Precision Rifle Series shooter.

The interviewer noticed he had a RMR type sight on his competition rifle and asked why that was. The shooter explained that it was an aid to getting on target quickly. He said that because the red dot had no magnification it was easy to find targets in its field of view and because it was zeroed with his scopesight, if the dot reticle was centered on the target, then so was the scope reticle. That’s especially useful with higher magnifications because it eliminates the need to try to find the target in the restricted field of view of the scope.

Intrigued, I tried it myself today with a couple of red dots that I have mounted on precision rifles. One sight is an Aimpoint ACRO and the other is a Docter. Both were mounted on the rifles to serve as backup sights for examination of concept purposes—and because I don’t currently have any other use for them. Although the shooter being interviewed said he zeroed his red dot at 600 yards, mine are zeroed for 50 yards (and some distance beyond, I believe*).

And the results? They worked just as he said they would. Put the dot on a distant target, hold it in position, look through the scopesight and voilà: there the target is, centered under the crosshairs at 15× and 18× of the two scopes.

When I thought about it, the concept made perfect sense, but it wasn’t one that ever occurred to me. Even with the magnification of my scopes turned down, at the distances I shoot most of my drills it’s often a chore to find the target, especially in the prone with a 75-YO body cooperating reluctantly at best. (Now I’m thinking I need to do something like that with one of my spotting scopes.)

That interview was the first time I’d ever heard of anyone’s using a red dot sight like that, and now my interest is piqued: does anyone else do that?

Yes or no, what do you think of the idea?

* Added: According to the Applied Ballistics solver, with my preferred ammunition and the ACRO mounted 4 inches above the bore line, with a 50 yard zero, the second zero point would be about 300 yards under my typical atmospheric conditions.

Follow-up regarding using the ACRO with the scope dialed up for farther targets. Changing the scope setting does, as expected, change the relationship between the red dot reticle and the crosshairs of the scope. But even dialing the scope up 6 full mils keeps the target well within the field of view of the scope at 15×, and close enough to the center of the crosshairs to be picked up easily. If the red dot were going to be used only when finding far distant targets it would make sense to zero it for a longer range as the shooter who was interviewed does. For my purposes, though, the 50 yard red dot zero works fine.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: sigfreund,




“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”
— Thomas Paine
 
Posts: 43589 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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confused, you mean the RMR is collinear to the scope? Or you mean there was a backup RMR that you transitioned then to the primary optic? hoping of course your POA has not moved in the transition? I can't even imagine seeing a 600y target in an RMR. Not that I have even tried something remotely close to that.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 9368 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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I can’t speak to what sort of target would be visible at 600 yards for the shooter in question, but the ones I’m accustomed to engaging at that distance are visible with the unaided eye. Therefore there is no problem with sighting using the red dot. The sighting does not have to be precise enough for shooting with the red dot, merely close enough to get the target into the field of view of the scope.

The way the RMR type sight and scopesight are used is that they are zeroed together (colinear?) When I use the RMR, I am able to quickly find a small, distant target and put the dot on it because the sight has a large field of view with no magnification. I then switch my view from the RMR to the scopesight and if I haven’t moved anything very much, the target will be under the crosshairs of the scope even at high magnification. When using just the scope normally, and especially at high magnifications, it’s often difficult to find a small target, and particularly if there’s nothing else in the field of view to help with adjusting the aim.

I experimented today with the setup and standing with the rifles supported by a tripod and nothing else, the technique worked well for very small targets to several hundred yards. I have just started experimenting with all this, so for longer ranges is may be necessary for the red dot to be adjusted for farther than the present 50 yards.

This is the setup with the ACRO. So, yes, I switch from looking through the ACRO to the scope.






“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”
— Thomas Paine
 
Posts: 43589 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So you can see the target with your unaided eye since the rds is not magnified. but having the dot on it makes it easier to then find in the scope? again assuming you are so stable that moving between the two is not an issue?


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 9368 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
but having the dot on it makes it easier to then find in the scope?


Yes, because both the dot and the crosshairs are aligned together.




“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”
— Thomas Paine
 
Posts: 43589 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Truth Wins
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This concept has been used on astro telescopes for a long time.



_____________
"I enter a swamp as a sacred place—a sanctum sanctorum. There is the strength—the marrow of Nature." - Henry David Thoreau
 
Posts: 4119 | Location: In The Swamp | Registered: January 03, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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No.

Encourage you to time yourself with and with out the red dot.

To your point on adding a red dot to your spotter. For the type of shooting I believe you are doing, suggest not using a spotter. Spot for your buddies with your scope. Put your rifle on a tri-pod if needed for comfort when spotting for others for long periods of time. Spending that much more time on your scope I strongly believe will help you aquire targets faster.
 
Posts: 2952 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by Micropterus:
This concept has been used on astro telescopes for a long time.


I had seen the use of small guide scopes, but not a red dot sight, and the latter never occurred to me.

Unfortunately, I don’t have the opportunity of doing much precision rifle shooting with others. I will keep that advice in mind, though. It isn’t anything that I had thought about before, but like anything, practice has to help.

The project of putting a red dot on a spotting scope is more about general viewing, not shooting. Once a fixed target is set up on, it won’t go anywhere. When I was using my best spotting scope to view the Jupiter/Saturn conjunction, it was a challenge to find them, even at 20 power.
I’m discovering that figuring out a way to do that without its being a total kludge job is going to be more difficult than I thought, but it’s one of those projects I like for the challenge. I may end up using hose clamps or zip tie handcuffs. (Yuk!)




“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”
— Thomas Paine
 
Posts: 43589 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I regularly see RDS on an RO's spare spotting scope at larger steel matches -- especially if the spare spotter has an angled eyepiece. This is primarily to help competitors find the targets quickly prior to shooting, and to keep the match moving.

I saw an RDS on a precision rifle in only one match -- the Raton 2-rifle match, which requires both precision bolt actions and carbines. A 3-gun shooter had the RDS on his bolt gun, on a 45-degree offset. He assumed the RDS would help him on the closer targets. It didn't and he shot all bolt-action targets through his scope.

If any shooting discipline would benefit from an RDS on a bolt action rifle, it would be PRS/NRL/steel matches. But I've never seen a competitor with one. Some stages in Competition Dynamics' matches have up to 8 targets, at distances of maybe 300-900 yards, across a lateral vector of up to 90 degrees, often with substantial vertical variation, and on the clock. Never seen an RDS here. IMO, having one probably would slow down target acquisition. If I can see the target with my bare eyes of if I can't but know where the target is, it will be faster to find it one time via my scope.

I agree with offgrid. Time yourself with and without the red dot. Use your riflescope for spotting.
 
Posts: 6828 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Never have understood the RDS on a precision rifle.

"It helps me get on target faster." Try the simple method of using the scope itself as an alignment on target. As you are above the scope and dropping into the rifle, align the scope with the distant target. Of course dialing back the magnification helps as well.

I've never seen anyone "make up time" by using a RDS.

Andrew



Duty is the sublimest word in the English Language - Gen Robert E Lee.
 
Posts: 772 | Registered: May 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
But I've never seen a competitor with one.


Thanks. I don’t recall seeing one used for the purpose I described in any of the many videos I’ve watched, so it obviously hasn’t caught on.

I did some limited shooting today (13°, 15 mph wind*, blowing snow), but wasn’t using either of my rifles with the red dots. The next session will probably be with one, so I’ll start keeping track of whether it helps me acquire the targets faster.

* Yeah, I know: You guys travel to hurricane country so you can shoot in windy conditions, but that’s the most wind I’ve had to put up with for a while. Wink




“To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead.”
— Thomas Paine
 
Posts: 43589 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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