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Planning to attend a law enforcement precision rifle instructor course in December. I will end up married to the gun after a week long shooting course. I have some bolt guns but the harder I look the more I come back to the Sig 716 DMR package as my choice due to its versatility and platform familiarity. Recoil management is also a factor for me. Has anybody here been through a rigorous course with the 716 DMR and can you share your experience with it? CMSGT USAF (Retired) Chief of Police (Retired) | ||
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There should be a number of people here with precision rifle courses. However, LEO-specific course experience may be limited, and first-hand Sig 716 in any precision-type courses may be really limited. I find few AR-10 type rifles to truly be a precision rifle. Not saying that they can't be, but takes a special rifle and a very special shooter to make it happen. At least in what I consider "precision". Thus, the definition of precision used both by the course and by you needs to be clarified. Such as distances to target, expected accuracy, expected uptime in challenging conditions of dirt/mud/lack of lubrication, rate of fire. Is a 308 chambering mandated? Are certain types of ammo mandated? Will the rifle have a muzzle brake or suppressor? What kind of optic is preferred, or maybe mandated? | |||
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What distances will you be shooting during the course? That will tell you what caliber you should have. .308 is good to 1000 yards in the heavier bullets. 6.5 is better. You probably need to contact the course instructor and see what is recommended and also you may want to train on the type(s) of rifle you will be instructing on. Sgt. USMC 1970 - 1973 | |||
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I'm not LEO, and I have not completed a precision rifle course (although I plan to) but I do have a couple of "precision" 308 rifles. One advantage that the SIG DMR has over competitors like an LMT MWS or LWRC is that it already comes with a decent stock and a Harris bipod. These are parts that you would have to purchase separately with other brands. All you really need to buy is some glass and you are ready to go. My DMR didn't come with a muzzle device, so I recommend also buying a suppressor or compensator to tone down the muzzle flash. "Like a horse has its rider, and the sky has its moon, a man has his loneliness, mistaken as pride." -Longmire | |||
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I always thought that LEO's are issued rifles for duty purposes and that those are invariably chambered in .308 Winchester. I have also read countless times that distances in LEO-involved events are quite a bit less that 100 yards. I only know what I read because I am not an LEO or a sniper or a wannabe. So, mas4363 makes a good point in the second sentence of this post; contact the instructor(s) and see what (s)he or they say about what you should get. I would think some type of bolt-action .308 with a 20 inch barrel and a good 3-12X or 4-16X scope with a big objective would be just the ticket. | |||
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| With bad intent |
While my 716 DMR performed flawlessy and was accurate, the rifle was a pig when fitted with a bipod, scope, full mag and suppressor. My Eberlestock Phantom was invaluable when doing anything wit that rifle. ________________________________ | |||
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| Freethinker |
Law enforcement sniping is something I’ve studied in depth and given a lot of thought. I therefore have many ideas about the subject and could go on and on about them. I don’t have the skills and knowledge for long distance shooting of the top tier competitors who post here, but do I know more about the related subjects such as loads and ballistics than the majority of LE snipers. On the other hand, I know much more about LE sniping than most long distance competitors. I will try to condense my comments somewhat, but I’m certainly willing to expound further on any of them. The semiautomatic rifle is still a rarity among LE snipers, but there is a growing realization of their advantages even if they are not capable of the inherent accuracy of the best bolt actions. All that evolves continuously, of course, and something to keep in mind is that the best semiautos today are better than the best bolt guns of yesteryear. We must also ask how much accuracy is necessary. The last time I checked, the farthest recorded LE sniper shot was in the vicinity of 200 yards. Even for a hostage rescue headshot, that does not require a 1/4 MOA-capable rifle. If the potential targets are barricaded subjects who might burst out of hiding while firing at officers or bystanders, the ability to fire multiple follow-up shots could be very important. The same is true if an initial shot misses. I practice shooting quickly with a bolt action rifle and do pretty well, I believe, but there is simply no way that a shooter can fire multiple shots as quickly with a bolt gun as with an autoloader. Bolt actions have the reputation of being more reliable than semis, but even that isn’t always true. Sergeant Nicholas Irving, an Army Ranger sniper who had a very deadly tour in Afghanistan, much preferred the SR-25 DMR over the bolt action in 300 Winchester Magnum that his shooting partner used. He recounted how the bolt gun stopped working one day, evidently because a bit of dirt got into the bolt and prevented proper firing pin movement. That was, of course, under harsh military combat conditions that the LE sniper is unlikely to ever encounter, but it demonstrated that even the “most reliable” guns can fail. As for the choice of cartridge, are there better ones for accurate long distance shooting than the 308 Winchester? Of course. Are there better ones for law enforcement sniping? Not necessarily. As I mentioned, LE sniping shots are typically taken at what a long distance shooter would consider spitting distances. Whether a bullet drops to subsonic velocity at 900 or 1050 yards is utterly meaningless for the LE sniper. A flatter trajectory and less wind drift can be of some value when shooting at 150 yards, but not much, and there are other more important factors to consider. The most important is load availability and commonality. People will point out that good factory loads for a cartridge like the 6.5mm Creedmoor are becoming more available, but that “more” part is a tacit admission that they’re not nearly as available as loads for other cartridges. The 308 Winchester is the de facto standard for LE snipers and will remain so for quite some time, if for no other reason that virtually all LE sniper rifles are chambered for the cartridge. More to the point, though, a cartridge that may be just the ticket for ringing a 6-inch plate at 800 yards may not be so good for shooting a hostage-taker standing 15 feet behind the laminated glass window of a bank 70 yards from the shooter. In addition to highly accurate expanding bullet loads that are ideally suited for unobstructed shots, the 308 has many good factory loading using bullets designed for extreme barrier penetration. The same is evidently somewhat true of the 6.5mm Creedmoor, for example, but there’s still the issue of how easy it is to find those loads, especially when ammunition supplies dry up—as has happened before and will assuredly happen again. And the problem with ammunition choice isn’t when things go right: Neutralize the crazy guy who’s threatening to kill his six-month-old daughter, and it wouldn’t matter if we used 10/22 for the purpose. No one except other professional snipers would care in the slightest. It’s when they go wrong that the second-guessing starts. A shot is missed, it doesn’t immediately incapacitate the BG, a hostage is hit, the bullet is deflected, etc., and a thousand “experts” will be available to say, “Our standard sniper round is the 308 Winchester. We believe 6.5mm bullets are too small and light for the job.” Does all that mean someone absolutely shouldn’t choose something other than the 308? No, but it does mean that those issues should be considered in the decision-making process. My primary precision rifle is a Tikka T3 “Tactical” chambered for 308. I had it modified to use AI magazines because I wasn’t happy with the original Tikka mags, but the newer CTR T3x uses Sako TRG-22 type mags that I believe are superior to both. My rifle has a 20 inch barrel that I consider ideal for LE sniping purposes and is threaded for a muzzle device. (BTW, most compensators help with felt recoil, but often they increase muzzle flash, don’t reduce it. They also make shooters much less popular on the firing line.) The Tikka Tactical models come with Picatinny mounting rails standard, and I consider that to be a must these days. Scopesights are evolving and improving quickly these days. The Leupold 3.5-10×40mm was often used for LE (and military) sniping in the past, but sights with increased magnification ranges are more common, and mine is 3-18×. Because LE sniping is usually at short distances, it’s important to have low power in the 3× range, but sometimes higher magnification than 10 power is also nice to have. I don’t see that the SIG comes with a Harris bipod, and I would prefer that. Harris bipods are fine, but I prefer the Atlas with a quick detach mount. I prefer carrying the bipod separately in most situations to reduce weight and the tendency of them to catch on things. I have a suppressor I can use on the Tikka, but it turns a handy 20-inch barrel to a nearly 29-inch brute. That’s not so good when moving through brush and trying to get set up in a field position. Suppressors have their advantages, especially on the range with other shooters, but I came to realize that I shouldn’t become wedded to their use. Now most of my practice and qualifications are without it. As a last thought (for now  ), checking with the course administrators for recommendations on guns and ammunition is a good idea, but only for input. The final decision should be yours because they’re not going to have to live with what they recommend. Getting through the course is good; having the best weapon for future missions is better.► 6.4/93.6 “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” — Plato | |||
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Students in the instructor course most be capable of 1" groups with their rifle at 100 yards in order to attend. The rifle must be .223 caliber or higher and be a bolt or semi auto. In my years with SWAT the snipers had to hit a dime sized target from the bipod from 100 yards. Training extended beyond 100 yards for a bit but most of the training is 100 yards or less. CMSGT USAF (Retired) Chief of Police (Retired) | |||
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This is pretty much what I expected. I have attended precision rifle and carbine courses from an active SWAT officer based in Ohio and from Nick Irving -- the Ranger mentioned in sigfreund's post above. Plus 2nd hand feedback from Rifles Only instructors, who teach LEO/SWAT/agency teams. My Ohio SWAT instructor stated that most domestic LEO engagements occur well within 100 yards -- generally in the 40-80 yard ballpark. The three that he was personally involved in were all less than 15 yards, as he was the first of his team through the door with ARs. His team included officers across the street with bolt action rifles, and they were within 50-75 yards of the bad guys. From a recoil management standpoint, 308 isn't the best cartridge. Sure, it's not a "thumper" magnum, but it's challenging for most shooters to keep sights on target throughout the entire recoil process. A suppressor or brake helps to mitigating recoil, of course. Semi-autos also tend to reduce recoil, but there are considerations with the moving parts of a semi, too. Given the very short engagement distances of domestic LEOs, I must believe that seeing one's bullet strike the target is really important. I can't do that with my 308 at distances shorter than 200-ish yards. I break the shot, the rifle jumps a bit, then I figure out where the bullet impacted. A couple of weeks ago I competed in a precision rifle match with my 6.5 Creedmoor suppressed bolt action. One station included an improvised shooting position from rocks, with two 30-35 degree downward angle shots in rapid succession onto 3" wide by 5" tall steel diamonds, at a distance of 115 yards. The energy on target was so great that the steel pieces did two or three loop-de-loops before settling down. I can manage the recoil of this 6.5 rifle well enough that I saw my bullets strike the plates some 3/4" right of my aimpoint -- due to drift of a 15 mph left-to-right wind. I don't have comparable impact observation skills with my 308. I understand the appeal of a semi-auto rifle, and I own a number of them. I know that I shoot a bolt action rifle more accurately, and I drive it through the recoil cycle better. I shoot lower recoiling calibers better than I shoot higher recoiling calibers. Consider all your factors before committing to a particular firearm platform. | |||
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I have to say, I thoroughly enjoyed reading your post, sigfreund. As I said earlier, I know nothing of LEO and sniping but I learned some things from your post. Thank you for that. | |||
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I'm .MIL not .LE so bear that in mind. It sounds like you know what that course standard is. You mention 1 inch at 100 yards. What does your data book/dope book/log book say? Have you shot that group size with that rifle and ammo before? If you haven't, I'd take a rifle you have met the standard with. | |||
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All good and salient points. My SWAT team had both .223 and .308 Remington sniper rifles (bolt guns)-we never saw a need for a heavier caliber because the distances are not that great in urban law enforcement. Long after I retired the same team is still using bolt guns-now the Blaser T2 in .308. I am leaning toward the DMR for a training gun for precisely the reason you mention-rapid follow up shots. There have been a number of real life situations where rapid follow up shots were important. The Good Guys hostage situation in Sacramento in 1991 comes to mind. We also gamed a number of scenarios with multiple bad guys who needed to be engaged very quickly. If I am going to be training designated marksmen I feel I need that capability on the training range. With respect to the round, we did a lot of testing in the early 80's with various barriers and glass types-we salvaged a lot of storefront glass from building demolition. The .223 round deflects pretty easily at angles-the .308 generally stays true up to the most extreme angles. (This is also where we learned to lay down lots of tarps for ease of cleanup on the range afterward). A proper platform is a big investment and as I said I will be married to the gun following the instructor school. Which is why I am looking for thoughts from anyone who has used this DMR platform. CMSGT USAF (Retired) Chief of Police (Retired) | |||
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| Freethinker |
I know this does not pertain to your question, HayesGreener, but I’d like to respond to the comment below. And if you don’t mind saying, what school/course will you be attending?
You always give me things to ponder, fritz. I’ve been thinking about this since yesterday, and this time I have to disagree. First, though, I’ll reiterate my opinion about the 308 Winchester cartridge: I wish that the process that started with the US military over a century ago and led to the 308’s being the de facto standard for law enforcement sniping had instead led to a 6.5mm round like the Creedmoor. Unfortunately, at no time was the process driven by what would be the best cartridge for sniping, so that didn’t happen. Regarding the necessity of an LE sniper’s being able to see his hit (or more likely, a miss), standard military and law enforcement doctrine calls for a shooter and a dedicated spotter to be deployed together, and for both to be qualified snipers. If the fall of the shot can be seen at all, the spotter will normally be better able to do that than the shooter. It would be best if the shooter can also see where his bullet went, but he will usually not be observing alone. And “if the hit can be seen” is a significant caveat for LE snipers. If the shot misses, the background in many real life situations will make it impossible for anyone to see where it went. American LE sniper targets are seldom positioned in front of things such as dusty berms that make impacts obvious. Even if operating alone and if the background might make a missed impact visible, an LE sniper is very unlikely to miss because she failed to read the wind correctly or got the range to the target wrong. Long range competitive shooters or military snipers sometimes miss for those reasons, but when LE snipers miss it’s usually due to improper shooting technique or sudden target movement. If improper technique, snipers—who are almost always experienced shooters—will usually be able to call their shots and have a pretty good idea where the bullet went without visual confirmation. If target movement, the sniper will probably know that, and it won’t do him much good in any event. From a practical standpoint as well the effect of recoil on LE snipers’ ability to see their hits just doesn’t seem to be something that any find to be a problem. I currently have 47 books that I’ve read in my sniping reference library, and a fair percentage are specifically about the theory and practice of police sniping. The concern about being able to see one’s impacts is not something I’ve read in any of them. If it were, I believe that not only would snipers comment about the problem, they would also do something about it by going to more suitable cartridges. Thanks again to HG for being able to address this question. ► 6.4/93.6 “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” — Plato | |||
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I don't claim to be an LEO or sniper, I'm just going by what our Ohio SWAT team leader passed on to us. I realize situations evolve over time, but he stated that historically not all domestic snipers work with a spotter. He stated that some time ago (I don't recall how many years ago), a sniper was ordered to fire at a bad guy with a hostage. IIRC, the bad guy was outside of the place of business -- possibly a bank. The sniper was less than 100 yards from the bad guy. The sniper positioned himself in a standing position behind some type of low wall, with second low wall not far forward of the wall he used for cover and to support the rifle. The sniper eventually worked out a clear shooting position, fired, and missed. Nothing changed with the bad guy, the hostage, or the wall/window behind the two. There was no immediate evidence that anything occurred after the "bang". Evidently the sniper fired again, and again nothing happened. Analyzing the situation, the sniper realized he didn't account for the height of the scope over bore -- he drove two bullets into the second low wall. The sniper moved his position so the bore would clear the second wall, fired a third time, and bad guy be gone. There was no spotter on this instance. Would have a spotter figured out the scope offset issue sooner? Maybe. I can state that twice I've shot bolt action rifles without properly considering bore/scope offset. I hit snow once in a match, and wood once in training. Even though my scope's parallax was set for hundreds of yards down range, I saw the flawed impacts through my own scope, and pointed out my error to those around me. I may be the party pooper here, but I think a sniper must be able to spot his own impacts, regardless of situation, regardless of distance. | |||
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| Freethinker |
I agree that’s best and you’re also right that not all snipers work with spotters. I have committed the “Yeah, doofus, the sight is higher than the bore” error myself, so I understand what you’re referring to. My failure to realize what I was doing wasn’t, however, due to excessive recoil because that was with a 5.56 AR. After I did realize it (because the FBI agent running the course told me: “Ahem …”), I still couldn’t see my hits because of the nature of the target. And of course that’s more common with law enforcement engagements than not. The patrol rifle course I shoot most frequently uses cardboard targets set at various distances, and I’m lucky if I can see the hits at 7 yards; knowing where shots hit at 15 yards and beyond is totally dependent upon my ability to call them based on where the gun was aimed when fired. ► 6.4/93.6 “Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something.” — Plato | |||
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