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AR(ish) Pistol(ish) beasties for HD scenarios...Am I missing the basis for the appeal? Login/Join 
Don't Panic
Picture of joel9507
posted
Preface:
#1 I'm not a pro, but I'm a decent shot with my pistols. Current HD scenario is P226/9mm/18 round mag.

#2 as a mechanical engineer, I can easily be seduced by the 'cool factor.' I have a couple flintlocks and picked up a LifeCard mainly due to my admiration for the designs. Recently, I have been very attracted to the "Copperhead" style AR pistols, at least conceptually.
----------------------
OK, on to the puzzler. I got to pick up a SIG Copperhead at the LGS the other day, and the arm brace thing seemed, well, questionable. (About the only time in my life I could see an advantage to being maybe a foot shorter with shorter arms and a longer neck!)

Then I got to thinking...cool as it looks, it is way bigger and heavier than the P226, not as pointable if one were moving about a home, more expensive....to put two more 9mm rounds (20 vs 18) through a shorter barrel?

So, reluctantly, I gave it back to the salesperson.

I must be missing something fundamental here. I am not Annie Oakley with the P226, but I can't see how hunching over one of these is going to improve the shot placement at the ranges I envision a potential home defense situation to take place. Or maybe that genre isn't designed to appeal as home defense alternatives to folks who are decent shots with their pistols.

Anyway, please let me know your thoughts.
 
Posts: 12632 | Location: North Carolina | Registered: October 15, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
E tan e epi tas
Picture of cslinger
posted Hide Post
If you are basically using the brace as a defacto stock(I am not weighing for or against I don’t own one) but assuming you are shouldering you gain stability and sight radius.

If you are talking purely stockless .... I agree I don’t get it beyond it’s a cool blaster kind of thing, which I have NO PROBLEMS WITH. I am a hobbiest not a door kicker cool factor plays in to most everything I own.


"Guns are tools. The only weapon ever created was man."
 
Posts: 4376 | Location: Nashville, TN | Registered: July 25, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Gracie Allen is my
personal savior!
posted Hide Post
I agree with the OP. I keep a 16" barreled rifle in the bedroom. Other than that, I've got a few relatively narrow doorways and a couple of relatively narrow halls, and keep a P320 with a light handy for checking the rest of the house. Given that it's easy to put a light and even a red dot on a good handgun these days, I see no particular advantage to an AR-type pistol with a brace for defense within the home - including those chambered for rifle cartridges given the trade-offs of additional flash and blast and limited performance that go with shorter barrels.
 
Posts: 23419 | Location: Deep in the heart of the brush country, and closing on that #&*%!?! roadrunner. Really. | Registered: February 05, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Avoiding
slam fires
Picture of 45 Cal
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For home defense I built an 10.5 ar SBR and put a can on it.Uncle got his $400.00 cause he need it.
New one in the works and it 8.5 with can and pistol version in 9X39.Shoots wolf 285 grain slugs and I dont have to worry about shooting up the hood in a shif situation.
 
Posts: 21967 | Location: Georgia | Registered: February 19, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I'm not sure the core of your question.
If you are comparing an AR pistol Smile in 9mm versus a 226 the advantage is you get a much faster and more accurate platform where its easy to have an optic and a light and whatever else floats your boat. Lots of people run 9mm AR's in the matches I do (I use an MPX but same difference) where you shoot the same course of fire with a pistol and the 9mm carbine (almost always a braced pistol). The normal spread is that the carbine scores are 30-50% faster than the pistols and always way more accurate.
If you mean an AR pistol in another caliber like 5.56 you get a rifle round in a package that is SBR like in size but without the required paperwork, wait and cost.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 7899 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yup^^^^^

I don’t care how good you are with your 226. You will put more rounds faster and more accurately with the pistol braced AR in your caliber of choice. 5.56 in a pistol in a hallway will produce a huge hearing loss possibility. Same gun in something less loud or with a can or even a pistol caliber not so much.

Easy test. Take a timer and your pistol and engage a couple targets at hallway distance. Then do the same thing with the pistol braced AR. In the heat of the moment the ATF nor yourself will know if you cheeked it or shouldered it. Lol. However, your timer will be quite clear in the winner of this contest. Hands down.
 
Posts: 2261 | Registered: June 18, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
We gonna get some
oojima in this house!
Picture of smithnsig
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The SBA4 is basically a stock that you can strap to your wrist. I think 556 without a can is a blast machine and a bit much for hallways.

I’m Messing with a 8” 300 blackout to see how it works out. The stupidity of waiting 6-12 months for a can makes it almost not worth it which I think is the real reason for the wait.


-----------------------------------------------------------
TCB all the time...
 
Posts: 6283 | Location: Cantonment/Perdido Key, Florida | Registered: September 28, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I played with a Copperhead, but picked up a CZ Scorpion Evo for half the price. Magazines are less than half the price, and nearly twice the capacity. The remaining cash went for 10 magazines and a suppressor, which was still less than the Sig. Since it's a toy anyway, get what you want. I left "practical" behind many years ago. It was covered with my first Glock 19.
 
Posts: 15006 | Location: Lexington, KY | Registered: October 15, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Sourkraut
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I’m much faster and more accurate with my 9mm AR Braced pistol than with any of my regular 9mm handguns. The other pluses are 30 round mags, red dot optic and a can. And....it’s more fun to shoot! You don’t need a can or red dot of course...


"Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die." Joe Louis
 
Posts: 568 | Location: Idaho | Registered: January 17, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by joel9507:
Preface:
#1 I'm not a pro, but I'm a decent shot with my pistols. Current HD scenario is P226/9mm/18 round mag.

#2 as a mechanical engineer, I can easily be seduced by the 'cool factor.' I have a couple flintlocks and picked up a LifeCard mainly due to my admiration for the designs. Recently, I have been very attracted to the "Copperhead" style AR pistols, at least conceptually.
----------------------
OK, on to the puzzler. I got to pick up a SIG Copperhead at the LGS the other day, and the arm brace thing seemed, well, questionable. (About the only time in my life I could see an advantage to being maybe a foot shorter with shorter arms and a longer neck!)

Then I got to thinking...cool as it looks, it is way bigger and heavier than the P226, not as pointable if one were moving about a home, more expensive....to put two more 9mm rounds (20 vs 18) through a shorter barrel?

So, reluctantly, I gave it back to the salesperson.

I must be missing something fundamental here. I am not Annie Oakley with the P226, but I can't see how hunching over one of these is going to improve the shot placement at the ranges I envision a potential home defense situation to take place. Or maybe that genre isn't designed to appeal as home defense alternatives to folks who are decent shots with their pistols.

Anyway, please let me know your thoughts.


A pistol caliber carbine (pistol/SBR) has no ballistic advantage. It has an accuracy & speed advantage, and a maneuverability disadvantage. For the trade-off to be better, I’d go with a rifle-caliber carbine, instead of the pistol-caliber one.

That said, I use a pistol for home defense with rail-mounted light and 33-rd magazine. I prefer keeping a hand free for lightswitch/doorknob manipulation, blocking, and ability to tuck the weapon back close to me to avoid weapon-grabs. Others will (rightfully-so), say they don’t go hunting for bad-guys in their house, and 9-1-1 with barricaded defense position is better. No argument from me, but, I go hunting if I hear noises...


---------
If you appreciate private ownership of firearms, please join the NRA, before it's too late. (Benefactor Member)
 
Posts: 58 | Registered: April 18, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Big Stack
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Why use a PCC? I'd go with a carbine cartridge (5.56, 300BLK). I'd keep active hearing protection handy to the firearm.
 
Posts: 19138 | Registered: November 05, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Let's forget the "pistol" part for a moment as it is just a weird manifestation of silly US law in regards to ARs.

A short barrel carbine can have multiple advantages in a CQB scenario. With a stock and cheek weld, it is far more accurate. The cheek weld also places the eye consistently behind the sight (or better yet) an RDS that is always on and easier to mount. Easier to find the dot from awkward positions as well that you may get into kneeling and leaning out from behind a bed or wall.

A light is also easy to mount, though most pistols have rails now.

An SBR is also easier to maintain control of with 2 hands on it and a sling. It is also a fantastic striking device. You can use it 1-hand in a pinch or go totally hands free which you can't do with a handgun in a HD scenario without a holster.

Finally; if it isn't a pistol caliber, you get much better terminal performance, probably less penetration through walls, and higher capacity.

I'll take all those advantages which is why my HD gun is a SBR'd AR in 5.56. I'd also feel fine with my .300 BLK AR "pistol".

That said, my P226 with 18rd mag is no slouch but it is a W. German so no rail, handheld light only. Training and proficiency (under stress) will way eclipse weapon choice.




“People have to really suffer before they can risk doing what they love.” –Chuck Palahnuik

The world's a dangerous place, we can help! http://portlandfirearmtraining.com/
 
Posts: 4532 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
My hypocrisy goes only so far
Picture of GrumpyBiker
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If you aren’t set on a certain chambering, an AR pistol in 9mm is quite handy.
I have one that’s 19.5” long (SBA3 collapsed) it has a 4.5” barrel.
The other has an 8” barrel.
I have 32 & 20rd mags depending on how it’s to be used.











Love this as my motorhome travel sidekick






U.S.M.C.
VFW-8054
III%

"Never let a Wishbone grow where a Backbone should be "



 
Posts: 6191 | Location: Central,Ohio | Registered: December 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
Picture of sigfreund
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One of things most often forgotten during discussions of almost anything is that when people take great interest in a thing, they tend to fall in love with it. When we’re in love we tend to believe it’s the best possible thing and we tend to overlook its faults/flaws. Short barreled rifles, especially true SBRs and not pistols with “braces” that can be used as stocks, and double especially when equipped with suppressors, have very high coolness factors. Coolness has always been an extremely potent love interest promoter. After all, anyone can go to the store and walk away with a garden variety Glock, but an SBR or even a pistol with a brace requires much more knowledge, not to mention time, money, and effort to obtain and be prepared to use.

But regardless of what the thing is—be it a potential bedmate or defensive weapon—we owe it to ourselves to look at it objectively. The first aspect of the latter issue should be recognition that defensive firearms are not all used the same way. The people who are paid to hunt dangerous adversaries rely on different types of guns for that reason: The best gun in one situation may not be best in another. And unless they fall in love with a particular gun, they will understand that fact and choose the proper weapon for the specific situation.

A former Army Special Forces sergeant once told me that when on active duty he would have been happier with an extra loaded magazine or two for his M16 rifle than a pistol in addition to the rifle. It took me a moment to think through that statement, but then I understood it completely. That soldier had been trained and operated in the traditional role that Army Special Forces was originally intended to fulfill. In his day SF troops weren’t kicking in doors to kill or capture terrorists in their bedrooms. If they became involved in combat, they would be fighting as infantry, and infantrymen very seldom ever need handguns on the battlefield. What they very often need is lots and lots of ammunition for their rifles.

Today, however, military special operators do sometimes need handguns as primary weapons, and therefore they have them. The same is true of the police in this country. Handguns are the best weapons ever developed for close quarters self-defense use and even though rifles have several advantages over handguns as already discussed, when a handgun is the best for a particular situation, it’s the best. At least one major Colorado SWAT team has been reemphasizing handgun use by its members and tactical course trainees from other agencies in close quarters situations.

Are there situations in which a rifle is the best weapon? Of course.
Are there situations in which a handgun is the best weapon? Despite the silly “a handgun is to fight your way back to your rifle” adage that has captured some people’s imaginations, the answer to that question is also, “Of course there are.”

If I were part of a team looking for a murderer in the woods of my county, I would have a DM-type rifle and worry much less about having a handgun.
If I were called to assist in neutralizing an active shooter in a school, I’d grab a rifle and a pistol.
When I investigate a strange noise in my house, I rely on a handgun for defense.




Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed nonage [immaturity]. Nonage is the inability to use one’s own understanding without another’s guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one’s own mind without another’s guidance.”
— Immanuel Kant
 
Posts: 40250 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
My hypocrisy goes only so far
Picture of GrumpyBiker
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I also like my 5.56 & 300blk AR pistols but the short 9mm ones are my favorites.
I have no illusions of a zombie apocalypse.
But the shoulder mag bag with 8, 32rd mags is nice to grab & go. A couple mags with +P PD ammunition in them is nice as well.







7.5” 5.56mm AR on the left
8” 9mm center
4.5” 9mm on the right.




4.5” 9mm @ 20’ super fast follow ups with the brake installed.





U.S.M.C.
VFW-8054
III%

"Never let a Wishbone grow where a Backbone should be "



 
Posts: 6191 | Location: Central,Ohio | Registered: December 28, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Prepared for the Worst, Providing the Best
Picture of 92fstech
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I have shot a "stockless" .22lr AR pistol before, and hated it. I found it to have poor balance and it was akward to operate. I've also tried braced AR pistols in 5.56, .300blk, and 9mm. Using the brace as an arm brace was similar to the .22 "pistol"...the gun was akward, heavy, and difficult to control. Shouldering the brace was a little better, but still akwardly short (probably doesn't help that I'm 6'5").

At the end of the day, I'd rather have a regular handgun indoors in close quarters. And if I'm going to use a rifle, I want one with a real stock, even if it means a longer overall length.
 
Posts: 3160 | Location: In the Cornfields | Registered: May 25, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Still finding my way
Picture of Ryanp225
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This awesome 10.5" barreled AR pistol in 5.56 WAS my primary HD weapon until I shot at a coyote without ear protection. This was out in open country with high winds at my back so I thought the noise would be mitigated a bit.

It wasn't.

My ears rang for 2 days so I'll either have to get a can for it or get used to it's 14.5" big brother taking it's place because firing this thing indoors is NOT going to happen.

 
Posts: 8278 | Registered: January 04, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Let's be careful
out there
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anything more than a 9 mm, you'd for sure better have a can on it, or your next major purchase will be hearing aids.
 
Posts: 7189 | Location: NW OHIO | Registered: May 29, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Picture of Sourkraut
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You can say that for ANY pistol/carbine/rifle/SBR/shotgun fired indoors without a can or hearing protection.....(larger than 9mm)


"Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die." Joe Louis
 
Posts: 568 | Location: Idaho | Registered: January 17, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think amplified hearing protection is a must (and an advantage) to have in any HD scenario. I have a set literally on the gun (or around it). Pick up the gun put on the hearing protection. I don't like the extra length of a can in HD, it negates why I have a short barrel in the first place. I have shot a short barreled ar in a variety of calibers in shoot houses that are pretty much worse acoustically than my house. A short barrel (I run 10.5) 5.56 is annoying with even decent muffs, but its not going to destroy my hearing or my ability to function. I generally double up when training with a short 5.56 and indoors but that is just because I have time. I don't think the noise level produced should be a factor in this, its very easy to negate that. I would rather have a full rifle cartridge than a pistol cartridge. And if I'm limited to a pistol cartridge I would rather have it in a braced format. I'm faster, more accurate, its shorter overall when operating/scanning etc.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 7899 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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