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"Homeland Security shooters are dumping .308 for 6.5 Creedmoor" Login/Join 
Freethinker
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quote:
Originally posted by DamageInc:
Do you think Border Patrol agents never take sniper fire?


You obviously know a lot about the subject, so thanks for chiming in.

As I posted, if that sort of thing is happening and they are responding with their own countersniper fire despite the dangers of doing so rather than taking cover or, yes, running away, I’m eager to learn about them. Please post some links to the accounts so I can read up on them and become convinced of their need for long range precision rifles. I haven’t been able to find anything of that nature, so I’m grateful that you’re aware of them and can point me in the right direction.

I am also curious what your basis of knowledge is about the effectiveness of the 6.5 Creedmoor for defending against human targets. Is that something that has been tested extensively? Again, I would be very grateful for any information you can provide about that or anything else pertaining to the subject that you’re obviously aware of.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 38006 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
I am also curious what your basis of knowledge is about the effectiveness of the 6.5 Creedmoor for defending against human targets. Is that something that has been tested extensively?

Whisky...Tango...Foxtrot...

Do you have any frickin' clue that the Scandinavian people have used the 6.5x55 Mauser -- which is very similar in velocity and energy to the 6.5 Creedmoor -- to effectively hunt MOOSE?

MOOSE. Big ass MOOSE.

Wow. Just wow.
 
Posts: 5305 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by DamageInc:
Do you think Border Patrol agents never take sniper fire?


You obviously know a lot about the subject, so thanks for chiming in.

As I posted, if that sort of thing is happening and they are responding with their own countersniper fire despite the dangers of doing so rather than taking cover or, yes, running away, I’m eager to learn about them. Please post some links to the accounts so I can read up on them and become convinced of their need for long range precision rifles. I haven’t been able to find anything of that nature, so I’m grateful that you’re aware of them and can point me in the right direction.

I am also curious what your basis of knowledge is about the effectiveness of the 6.5 Creedmoor for defending against human targets. Is that something that has been tested extensively? Again, I would be very grateful for any information you can provide about that or anything else pertaining to the subject that you’re obviously aware of.


You obviously don’t know much, if anything about conditions of the border or the employment of LE precision shooters ( call them snipers, counter snipers, Tactical Observers - it’s semantics).

You seem obsessed with this idea of “counter sniping” being agents coming under fire, getting a rifle out of the trunk and returning fire. Did you see this on TV ?

BP Agents take fire from south of the river (and return fire) on a regular basis. No one needs to “convince” you of anything, it is reality on the border and has been for decades.

Regardless, precision rifles are only authorized for specializrped units such as BORTAC.

The shooters work as part of a two man Tactical Observer team just like other LE/Mil teams. They are part of and work in support of a larger BORTAC team. These teams are normally conducting pre-planned operations in remote areas including mountains, desert, etc.

The TO team will normally pre position and provide overwatch /long cover for operations like high risk interdiction operationa. One example of this is setting up what is basically an “ambush” intercepting drug loads, and the rip off crews which prey on them.

If you want a more detailed example this type interdiction operation look up the operation which resulted in the death of BPA Brian Terry.
 
Posts: 285 | Location: Texas | Registered: March 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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Thanks, HCM, for all that. (But no, I haven’t watched teevee on one that I’ve owned since 1972 when mine was stolen by government contractors when I went to Korea, so unlike what is obvious about most Americans, I don’t get my ideas or knowledge there.)

I keep hoping for specific information about these things and continue to be disappointed, but I will attempt to find out about the one you mentioned. Are you aware of any books or articles on that operation?

As for the effectiveness of the 6.5 Creedmoor as an antipersonnel cartridge I have little doubt that it would “do the job” as the magazine article writers put it. The reason I ask such questions, though, is that I’ve been interested in human—not hunting—wound ballistics all five plus decades of my adult life and if there’s one thing I know for certain as a result of all that study is that such information is often highly flawed: incomplete, just plain wrong, or both. When someone makes a categorical statement about the subject, I extend the courtesy of believing that he has specific and reliable bases for his statement and isn’t simply extrapolating from something else that may be similar, but not the same. Although I haven’t had much experience hunting big game myself, through the miracle of the Internet it’s possible to clearly observe that when such animals are shot, they very often react in ways that would sadden a law enforcement sniper if he were trying to instantly end a criminal threat.

I have a lot of respect for your contributions here, fritz, but I gather that I’ve annoyed you with my explanations of why law enforcement snipers seldom, if ever choose lower-powered cartridges that allow shooters to spot bullet impacts themselves. Perhaps I’m wrong about the source of your annoyance, but in any event annoying you wasn’t my intent. I believe that when something like this is being discussed, it’s important for people who may be students of the subject to have a fuller understanding of the factors involved. And if someone keeps saying, “You have to be able to spot your own bullet impacts,” in a discussion of this specific subject, I may keep explaining how law enforcement sniping is different from competition shooting and why that’s not something most law enforcement snipers believe is true.

Added: Thanks to all for these discussions, even when people believe I’m an ignorant idiot. Every challenge forces me to reevaluate my knowledge and opinions. Although it doesn’t happen frequently ( Wink ), everything I learn that’s new or different makes it all worthwhile.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 38006 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
In other words, the lighter recoil of the 6.5 offers no practical advantage at reasonably likely LE sniping engagement distances...

You’ve shot with offgrid at the Chaffee County range, possibly with Alpine and Scott, too. Given that I’ve been there, too, let me guess how at least one of those days went.

Offgrid walked up to the bench line with his rifle, one mag, and a rear bag. He plopped down on the ground next to a bench, observed conditions briefly, and fired one shot at the 1040-ish yard tall & skinny plate next to the tree. Then he fired four more rounds fairly quickly at the same target. Figure 3/5 hits on a windy day, 4/5 hits on a normal day, and maybe even 5/5 – like I saw him do one day. He probably used some flavor of 6mm or 6.5mm bore. Afterwards he told you he not only saw the impacts, but also the trace of the rounds for the final 300-400 yards.

Of course, offgrid is just a gamer dude who shoots at steel. Cold bore shots with minimal prep time, with the goal of making that first round count, probably have no bearing for LEOs.

You likely tried the same with your 308, or maybe with a 300WM. Your hit percentage was low and you had trouble spotting your impacts. Maybe you tried his 6 or 6.5mm, and your hit percentage increased, as did your ability to see your own results. I know mine increased going from my Creedmoor to his Dasher.

Later offgrid shot from a kneeling position behind a bench – bipod on the bench, buttstock supported by a tripod leg. With this method he showed very high hit percentages on 1 MOA pasters at 100 yards, and on 1 MOA steel at the midrange distances (400- 500 yards?). You may have tried the same with your heavier caliber rifles – is so, it probably didn’t go so well. Assuming you tried again with offgrid’s (or Alpine’s or Scott’s) 6mm rifles, your hit percentage increased.

Distances could have been 50, 70, or 90 yards. With targets sized for the relative distance, the results wouldn’t have changed much. The smaller caliber rifle would have had produced better accuracy, regardless of who was behind it.

How do I know this? Because I’ve shot with offgrid, doing similar drills -- at Chaffee and other ranges.

****
I had the fortune of shooting with Nick Irving, shortly after he returned from the sandbox as a Ranger Sniper. I recall he had 35-ish confirmed kills. He used a 308 KAC SR-25 while deployed. In our training course he had his first chance to shoot 6.5 Creedmoor rifles – my GAP bolt action and the land owners GAP-10 semi auto. Nick is one of the finest shooters one could ever imagine. He stated if he had the lower-recoiling 6.5s during his deployment, he would have shot more accurately.

****
Jacob Bynum owns Rifles Only. He is the head instructor there and one the finest shooters one could ever imagine. Jacob’s been a 308 guy since dirt was invented. In the last few years he’s begun to appreciate how 6.5s and 6s make accurate shooting easier. This comes not only from his personal experience, but that of the boatloads of contractors, LEOs, and alphabet-agency shooters he trains.

***
Andrew is a SWAT team leader in Ohio. He also serves as a SWAT instructor for surrounding counties in Ohio. Andrew is ludicrously fast and accurate with pistols, carbines, and precision rifles. When I trained under Andrew, his agency only used 223 and 308. After shooting the 6.5 precision rifles used by most of the students in his course, he was looking to change from 308 to 6.5 as rifles and/or barrels need replacing.

****
Frank Galli was a Marine Sniper, and subsequently an instructor at Rifles Only. He now runs Snipers Hide website, and he teaches precision rifle to LEOs, agencies, and civilians. Frank has been on the 308 bandwagon since Moby Dick was a minnow. Read a few articles on the ‘Hide and you’ll see how strongly Frank now recommends 6.5s over 308 for both LEO and competition use.

****
Every accomplished shooter I know states that that they shoot lower-recoiling rifles noticeably more accurately than higher-recoiling rifles. Regardless of target distance. Regardless of shooting position. Actually, the less stable the shooting position, the more important a lower-recoiling caliber becomes.

Even the law enforcement guys state that being able to spot their own shots is important. This is from guys who have pulled a trigger with cross hairs on a bad guy.
 
Posts: 5305 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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Originally posted by fritz:
Even the law enforcement guys state that being able to spot their own shots is important. This is from guys who have pulled a trigger with cross hairs on a bad guy.


Thank you. I learn things here that I’ve never seen discussed elsewhere. I have over 60 articles and books (mostly the latter) in a bibliography on sniping and not one has discussed the importance of using a lower-powered cartridge for the purpose to improve accuracy. In fact, the movement among military snipers has been toward more powerful rounds, such as to 300 Winchester Magnum from 308 Winchester.

Next time you talk to the law enforcement snipers who have used the 6.5 Creedmoor or other less-powerful cartridges than the 308 Winchester against human targets, please ask them to publish their views and findings in the appropriate literature. I eagerly await reading those details.

Thanks again. Please, however, don’t bring a straw man into this discussion with a comment about “just a gamer dude who shoots at steel.” You don’t believe that of him and I’ve given you no reason to think I believe it, so it has no place here. I have nothing but respect for the knowledge and skills of you long distance shooters who regularly post here, and that’s especially true of offgrid who has personally taken the time to assist me with my own shooting. He taught me techniques that I incorporated into my own training and qualifications, and I am extremely grateful to him and all the others who are the reason for much of what I know. We may disagree about certain things, but it’s not because I don’t respect your ability to express them in a rational manner.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 38006 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Although I favor the 6.5CM, I wouldn’t bet on the USSS adopting the 6.5CM anytime soon..
quote:
Originally posted by DennisM:
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:


The 6.5 Creedmoor is indeed better for long distance engagements, but what’s the chance that a DHS sniper will ever be shooting someone at 900 yards? A shooter spending his own money and wanting to win competitions will choose equipment based on what is best for his purposes, whereas when it’s taxpayer money, all that matters is if someone can convince his bosses that all the cool kids are using it.


The primary DHS consumers of the new setup will be USSS. Their shooters might train for longer-range shots, but in their normal working "bubble," 300 or less. Also, it's unlikely, IMO, that the sudden need for 6.5 is being driven by the guys who are actually shooting.

I'm skeptical of change for the sake of change.


_____________________________________________________________________
”The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.”
امّا شما مشخص خواهد شد كه با همه شما را ملاقات کنند
 
Posts: 10377 | Location: Carolina but Texas in my heart | Registered: November 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I like and concur with your observations here..
quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
I have virtually identical precision bolt action rifles in 308 and 6.5 Creedmoor. Thousands of rounds through each rifle, with maybe 10 years behind the 308 and 7 years behind the 6.5. Many times in practice I shoot them side by side, at the same targets, under the same conditions.

The accuracy potential of both rifles is similar enough, although ultimately I give the 6.5 a .1" or so advantage at 100 yards. My 6.5 groups are more consistent, however. Flight ballistics (drop and drift) are pretty similar out to 250 yards, but by 300 yards the 6.5 has a noticeable hit percentage advantage on small targets.

The real advantage of a 6.5 is reduced recoil. Those of us who shoot where we must spot our own impacts, be ready for an immediate follow up shot with a corrected wind/elevation/hold, and often from less-than-optimal positions understand that a 308's recoil makes such situations more challenging. In this way a Creedmoor/6.5x47/260 is hands down better than a 308.

The 6mm bores (243/6x47/Creedmoor/Dasher/BRX) are even better than the 6.5s for recoil management.

There's no doubt that the 308 is a great cartridge -- one that can do a lot things quite well. But in this arena, the 6.5s can do it better.


_____________________________________________________________________
”The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.”
امّا شما مشخص خواهد شد كه با همه شما را ملاقات کنند
 
Posts: 10377 | Location: Carolina but Texas in my heart | Registered: November 13, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Next time you talk to the law enforcement snipers who have used the 6.5 Creedmoor or other less-powerful cartridges than the 308 Winchester against human targets, please ask them to publish their views and findings in the appropriate literature.

You'll likely be waiting a long time. I find such information is passed on face to face, after training sessions and competitions. The guys I've been around don't seem to have the time or the desire to publish.

If you're serious about acquiring similar knowledge/experience, I recommend face to face interaction. Training courses are one option. In Colorado, Brian Whalen and Frank Galli are options. If a little travelling vacation is on the docket, Rifles Only, Gunsite, JP, Thunderbeast, Thunder Ranch, and K&M come to mind.

Competitions are another option. There are LEOs and ex military in these events, not just weekend hobbyists and sponsored competitors. National Rifle League has a great match in northern Colorado, and our own Alpine is heavily involved in putting that match on. Over the winter -- Alpine, offgrid, Scott, and I shoot at a low-key match in the town of Rifle. I believe there are still monthly matches at the Fort Carson range at Colorado Springs, but my schedule this year has been hectic. There are monthly matches at the Pueblo West range -- both center fire and rimfire rifles. The monthly match at Raton's Whittington center is quite good, and inexpensive, too. Be prepared to be humbled.

*****
Last year I shot a precision rifle match in Albuquerque, NM. I was told I would get my butt kicked my first time out at this match. I did. IIRC the first day's time limits were 120 seconds per stage, the second day's times drop to 90 seconds per stage. Stages generally had 8-12 rounds on target, multiple targets, often with movement between shooting positions. The clock started with the gun at port of arms, and then we had to move and build shooting positions. I finished just below middle of the pack for the match. I had a rough first day, but improved on the second day.

The top LEO was a 20-something year old Army sniper, who had just been accepted to the school to become a sniper instructor. Which means he can shoot. IIRC he finished about 1/4 down the standings, and he was quite humbled. At the post-match awards ceremony, the Army sniper said he would be taking his experiences from the match back to the sniper school to make our snipers better.

I chatted with him briefly afterwards, first thanking him for his service. I asked what his takeaways were from the match. In short:
-- The competitors' ability to keep the gun on target, see impacts, correct for wind with subsequent shots. Most stages required building shooting positions in non-traditional ways. We shot from prone in only a few stages.
-- The competitors' ability to engage multiple targets rapidly, without looking like they were hurrying.
Most of the top guys in this match were shooting 6mm or 6.5mm bores.

Who knows if such information will be put in print from the Army.
 
Posts: 5305 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Freethinker
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Okay, thanks for all that advice. Personal circumstances make it very unlikely I will ever again have the opportunity to get involved in competitions or otherwise spending time away from home, but one never knows and I should at least see if I can ever make anything work. I especially appreciate knowing which training you recommend.




“I can’t give you brains, but I can give you a diploma.”
— The Wizard of Oz
 
Posts: 38006 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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