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quote:
Originally posted by 2Adefender:
quote:
Originally posted by arfmel:
Has Homeland Security ever shot anyone? Was the .308 inadequate?

I would also like to know the answers to these questions.

What makes you think any law enforcement agency wound willingly share the efficacy of its firearms with the public?
 
Posts: 5569 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Chilihead and Barbeque Aficionado
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quote:
Originally posted by Fundman:
Homeland Security includes Border Patrol and Secret Service which are often involved in shootings. I even recall a 2005 incident when Air Marshals fatally shot a passenger at Miami International Airport.


Thanks. That makes sense.


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Posts: 9462 | Location: FL | Registered: December 29, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Chilihead and Barbeque Aficionado
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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
quote:
Originally posted by 2Adefender:
quote:
Originally posted by arfmel:
Has Homeland Security ever shot anyone? Was the .308 inadequate?

I would also like to know the answers to these questions.

What makes you think any law enforcement agency wound willingly share the efficacy of its firearms with the public?


You're right. They normally don't share that.


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Posts: 9462 | Location: FL | Registered: December 29, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Yeah, that M14 video guy...
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I wonder if they factor in barrel longevity. I've never owned a 6.5. How many rounds can you get through a barrel before it needs to be changed?

I know the 308 is good for match accuracy for at least 5k.

Tony.


Owner, TonyBen, LLC, Type-01 FFL
www.tonybenm14.com (Site under construction).
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Posts: 2926 | Location: USA | Registered: February 13, 2001Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by benny6:
I've never owned a 6.5. How many rounds can you get through a barrel before it needs to be changed?

I pulled my stainless Bartlein Creedmoor at 3,236 rounds. The barrel still shot pretty well at 100 yards, say 1/2 MOA -ish, but groups were beginning so expand a bit. I experienced a few low flyers for long distance targets at the first match of the season. Low flyers are odd for me -- when I yank shots they almost always go high. An ELR match was coming soon, so I had my 'smith install a new barrel.

My 'smith said it looked like I "shot the shit out of that barrel". There was some serious throat erosion and a long jump to the lands. I did not chrono my factory Hornady 140 ELD and Amax ammo, but based on down range elevations, MV couldn't have decreased very much. IMO this means Hornady's 140s tolerate jump pretty well.

Other shooters who have shot out 6.5x47 and 6.5 Creedmoor barrels have stated my round count is in the ballpark for 6.5 barrel replacement. I have seen webz reports of shooters going to 4,000 rounds before replacing barrels, but that really seems to be the high end for precision shooters.

FWIW, my stainless Bartlein 308 barrel now has 4,600 rounds and is still shooting well. But I'm carefully watching its performance.
 
Posts: 5569 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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On .308, accuracy, and law enforcement. I have an opinion. I'm not law enforcement.

But I've been shooting an Accuracy International AE for years.

Hi Fritz.

How accurate is .308? Well, for a law enforcement scenario, it's fucking mint. Why do I know? Because all I need at 200 yards is a single dot from a sharpie on an 8x11 piece of paper.

The rifle I've been shooting is supposed to reach out accurately to 600yds, but I've never shot it that far. At 200, you can one hole with FGMM, if you do your part. At 300, you can also one hole, but I don't do that regularly.

.308 is a heck of a round for "close" engagement, and it is well understood and widely available.

While there are certainly bullets that will go farther more accurately, why any agency tasked with domestic law enforcement would look beyond puzzles me.

At some point, I'll have shot out the barrel of this rifle, and then I'll get another. Considering a whole day at the range is maximum 40 rounds, it'll take a while.


Arc.
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Posts: 24910 | Location: Love that dirty water, oh | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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https://www.armytimes.com/news...new-round-next-year/

SOCOM snipers will ditch their bullets for this new round next year

By: Todd South   1 day ago

INDIANAPOLIS ― Top special operations snipers will replace their 7.62mm sniper rifles with a caliber that doubles their hit probability at 1,000 meters, increases their effective range by nearly half, reduces wind drift by a third and has less recoil.

What caliber is that, might you ask?

The 6.5mm Creedmoor.

Big Army has been at work on its own intermediate caliber rifle round as officials simultaneously develop the Next Generation Squad Automatic Rifle to replace the existing 5.56mm Squad Automatic Weapon. That project is one piece of a larger effort to also build a next-generation carbine.

But while they are building an entirely new platform, starting somewhat from scratch in an effort that is expected to see a rifle that’s fielded in 2021, special operations snipers will see barrel changes and modifications to their guns fielded next year, said the command’s ammo expert.

Last October, Special Operations Command took eight to 10 shooters from three of the special operations components and had them fire three sniper platforms over a three-day period, said Patrick Fisher, the acquisition program manager for ammunition for Special Operations Command.

Those shooters fired Knight’s Armament’s SR-25, the M110A1 Semi-Automatic Sniper System (based on Heckler & Koch’s G28) and the Mk20 Sniper Support Rifle, made by Fabrique Nationale or FN, in three calibers — 7.62mm NATO, .260 Remington and 6.5mm.

Then they started looking at the correct cartridge combination, Fisher told an audience Monday at the annual National Defense Industry Association Armament Systems forum here.

Two dozen combinations were evaluated before down-selecting to six, and now one combination of bullet size and shape with propellant, casing and primer are going through testing, he said.
 
Posts: 13320 | Location: Eastern Iowa | Registered: May 21, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by arcwelder76:
How accurate is .308? Well, for a law enforcement scenario, it's fucking mint. Why do I know? Because all I need at 200 yards is a single dot from a sharpie on an 8x11 piece of paper.

No arguments here. My GA Precision 308 under my club fists has produced a few 5-round groups at 100 yards in the .25" to .30" range. Nick Irving, Frank Galli, and Tony Burkes (ex-Rifles Only instructors) have all produced groups in the .1" to .2" with this rifle. So yeah, 308 goes where you point it.

308 can go a long ways, too, under the right conditions. With 168 Amax, 7000 feet Density Altitude, and very light breezes, one day I surprised even Jacob Bynum of Rifles Only (Mr. 308 himself) with consistently dinging IPSC steel at 1400 yards under the watchful eye of one of his instructors.

On the first page of this thread, LDD states that 6.5 Creedmoor penetrates ballistic plates better than 308. I don't have any experience here, but the 6.5's slightly higher MV and slightly smaller diameter bullet should contribute. Of course, bullet construction comes into play, regardless of its caliber or weight.

In the typical domestic LEO's engagement distance, a whole boat load of rifle chamberings should work. IIRC that's 30 yards to maybe 125 yards, but generally well under 100 yards. And 308 works for this role for a whole boat load of reasons.

But it still comes down to 6.5 chamberings are easier to shoot accurately due to recoil that is noticeably less than that of a 308. And reduced recoil better allows the shooter to see his own impacts, and then if necessary to fire another round more quickly. Decrease the bore to 6mm and the recoil decreases even more.
 
Posts: 5569 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Oh, it's not so much any opposition to 6.5, but the frame of an LEO application.

Ballistics is a fascinating science, that between 7.62 and 6.5 there can be real performance variance.

Really though, inside 200yds, if'n you need to pinch pennies, .308 is still dandy.


Arc.
______________________________

"Like a bitter weed, I'm a bad seed"- Johnny Cash

"I'm a loner, Dottie. A rebel." - Pee Wee Herman

Rode hard, put away wet. RIP JHM

"You're a junkyard dog." - Lupe Flores. RIP

 
Posts: 24910 | Location: Love that dirty water, oh | Registered: June 09, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by fritz:

...But it still comes down to 6.5 chamberings are easier to shoot accurately due to recoil that is noticeably less than that of a 308...


How much less? I have a Savage 308 and recoil is snappy, even with a LimbSaver. My Savage 223 is a pleasure to shoot, not so the 308. FWIW, I shoot at paper targets at 100 yds, occasionally 200. I am not a hunter. Or sniper.

Is there any way you can "rate" the 6.5 compared to 308 or 223?
 
Posts: 13320 | Location: Eastern Iowa | Registered: May 21, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Sigmund:
Is there any way you can "rate" the 6.5 compared to 308 or 223?

Recoil charts put a 308 at roughly 17-18 foot pounds. A 6.5 Creedmoor will be in 12-14 foot pounds. A 243 will be 9-11 foot pounds. A 6 Dasher should be 7-8 foot pounds. A 223 around 3-4 foot pounds. Effective brakes can cut recoil by 60-70%. Expect 40-50% reduction from the best suppressors.

Shooters really experience the relative differences in recoil when they want to spot their own impacts, especially at shorter distances. By this I mean actually watching your bullet fly into the target.

Spotting your own impacts is not:
- I broke the shot
- the reticle bounced off target
- I stopped the gun movement caused by recoil
- I moved the reticle back on target
- I see the dust plume drifing away from the impact zone, a few tenths of a second after impact

A high-power rifle bullet initially flies about 100 yards every 1/10 of a second. With good training and some practice, it's not too difficult to see your own impacts at 300-350 yards with a 308. The same skill level will see impacts at 250-275 yards with a 6mm bore, and maybe 200-225 yards with a 223.

On days when my technique is good and I'm shooting from a solid position, I can spot my own impacts down to about 200 yards with a 308, about 175 yards with a 6.5, and about 150 yards with a 223. When I'm really good, on occasion I have spotted impacts at 100 yards with a heavy 223 rifle -- but not with larger calibers. This means that the rifle's movement during the recoil cycle is minimal, and straight backwards. The shooter tries to maintain his vision through the scope during the whole recoil process as if the rifle had never been fired.

Find someone who has seen their own bullet's trace through their rifle scope, and you have someone who can spot their own impacts. The lower the recoil energy of a rifle, the less the reticle moves off target, and the easier it is to spot your own shots.
 
Posts: 5569 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This reported cartridge switch is about law enforcement sniping, and although there are similarities among all types of precision rifle shooting, there are significant differences. As someone who has studied and pondered LE sniping, my comments:

First a caveat: Like most organizations that have highly sensitive missions, the Secret Service doesn’t advertise much about how or why it does things. It is quite possible that the USSS has a requirement (or the possible requirement, anyway) to be prepared to engage targets at much longer ranges than other law enforcement agencies. Their snipers could, I suppose, find themselves in situations in which they would need to neutralize unprotected threats at 400 yards and beyond. By that I mean individuals who are exposed to rifle fire aren’t protected with anything more than soft body armor.

The reason that distinction is important is that although the 6.5 Creedmoor cartridge may be better for long distance shooting, if an actual threat might be protected behind a barrier or even with hard body armor plates, then neither the 6.5 or 308 Winchester cartridge would be adequate for the task. As a minimum we would expect knowledgeable snipers in a well-funded agency to be armed with a rifle chambered with the 338 Lapua round or even something more powerful. And of course, if the USSS thought it needed such a weapon, they would have it and not be subject to any debates about its importance.

I actually find it hard to imagine that individual Secret Service or other agency snipers would be expected to engage in sniper duels at hundreds of yards, but as I say, that’s not the sort of thing they’re going to discuss with the rest of us, so if they think they need to change, great.

To return to the 6.5 Creedmoor and its improved suitability for other law enforcement sniping operations, some things are worth considering.

Snipers’ bullets have two tasks: the first is to hit the target, and the second is to do the necessary amount of damage to the target to accomplish the mission. Competitors’ bullets have only the first task; if they hit the target, nothing else matters. Military sniper bullets must first satisfy the lawyers’ opinions that they are nonexpanding, and therefore not a violation of the treaties governing warfare. The second requirement is that they hit their targets. Those two most important military sniping criteria are satisfied by the same open tip match-type bullets originally developed for use by competitors. Such match bullets usually satisfy military wound ballistics requirements as well, but they are not ideal for that third purpose, and compared with other bullets are actually unsatisfactory for the demands of law enforcement sniping.

Competitors’ bullets need only poke a hole through paper or make a noise when they hit steel. Military sniping bullets must satisfy regulatory requirements, and cause some damage to their human targets—but too much that produces “unnecessary suffering.” Law enforcement sniping bullets are used in specific defensive situations when hostages, bystanders, and/or LE officers are in immediate danger. They must therefore be capable of reliably neutralizing that danger, preferably instantly.

Although many LE snipers evidently still rely on the far-outdated 168 or 175 grain Sierra MatchKing target bullets used by military snipers, anyone who understands the rudiments of wound ballistics knows that bullets specifically designed to expand are more likely to cause maximum wounding effects. Almost all hunters of North American big game are aware of that fact, but for those who aren’t, manufacturers like Berger and Sierra clearly warn that their target bullets are not suitable for hunting.

Two 308 Winchester cartridges that are specifically marketed for law enforcement sniping purposes are the Hornady 155 and 168 grain A-MAX TAP loads. An examination of the ballistic performance of the 155 grain load in particular makes clear how much superior it is to the Federal 168 grain Gold Medal Match load. Not only is its muzzle energy virtually the same as the GMM’s, the A-MAX bullet expands readily and delivers all of its energy to the target very quickly. It also delivers precision performance, easily satisfying the common LE sniping standard of 1 MOA from quality rifles. The load has been specifically recommended by at least one LE sniping authority. Because it’s also the round I decided after much research for my agency to issue, I can discuss it with some basis of knowledge.

The ballistics information about that load are compared with two Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor loads, the 120 grain A-MAX and the 140 grain ELD Match, all of which I have personally chronographed as fired from Sako TRG-22 rifles with 26 inch barrels. (Yes, it’s unlikely that many LE snipers would use rifles with 26 inch barrels, but because I have only the one rifle chambered for 6.5, I used the same model rifle for the 308 data.)

The 308 load produces about 2760 foot-pounds of energy at the muzzle; at 200 yards under standard atmospheric conditions, it’s ~1990 ft-lb. With a 10 mph 90° wind, its drift at 200 yards is 3.2 inches. If engaging a target running at a sustained speed of 9 mph at 200 yards, the lead necessary would be 36.4 inches or 5.1 milliradians (mils).
The 120 grain 6.5 load produces 2133 ft-lb ME, and 1584 at 200 yards. With the same wind, the drift is 2.9 inches. Running target lead: 36.2 inches or 5.0 mils.
The 140 grain 6.5 load produces 2152 ft-lb ME, and 1703 at 200 yards. Wind drift is 2.4 inches, and lead 38.3 inches or 5.3 mils.

Keep in mind that 200 yards would be a very long shot for an LE sniper. Based on data from a few years ago, the average LE sniper engagement has been less than 100 yards. But based on 200 yard performance which load would be best for the purpose?

Despite what some people claim to believe, projectile power makes a difference in wounding effects. It is, after all, the energy transferred to the target that causes wounding. Assuming similar degrees of energy transfer because of similar bullet design, the more energy the projectile has, the more work (tissue damage/wounding) it can perform. That doesn’t mean that we can’t go low enough in energy levels to produce undesirable results in some situations. I read one report in which a hostage-taker was shot in the body with a 223 Remington bullet because the sniper didn’t have a clear head shot. The HT was able to kill the hostage before being becoming incapacitated, whereas it was believed that a shot from a 308 Winchester would have more likely kept him from doing that. Would a 6.5 shot been sufficient? Perhaps; we don’t know, but what we do know is that more power in such a situation is better.

Law enforcement snipers don’t always have clear shots at their targets, and then more power can make a difference, but not only because of its direct effect. More power means better penetration through barriers such as windshield glass, especially with proper bullets. At this time, there are far more loads suitable for sniping in 308 Win than 6.5 CM, and especially loads with bullets specifically designed for barrier penetration. A monolithic 6.5 bullet might perform well through some barriers, but there are designs in 308 that we know will perform well. (Army Special Forces snipers are specifically cautioned to not rely on their open tip match bullets for hostage rescues when shooting through glass barriers.)

As the above ballistics data demonstrate, even in terms of wind drift and engaging moving targets, the 6.5 Creedmoor doesn’t enjoy any significant advantage over the 308 Hornady load. So, what does that leave us? If it’s not power or other ballistics effects in which the 6.5 outshines the 308 at short to long range (law enforcement) distances, what does?
The only thing I’ve seen claimed here is that the 6.5 is easier to shoot because of its reduced recoil. That’s true, but what does that mean for law enforcement sniping?

At sufficiently long distances, I can observe the bullet impact when shooting a Tikka T3 with muzzle brake and chambered for 308 Winchester. Using a Thunder Beast suppressor makes it even easier. At a range of about 95 yards (the average distance for LE sniper engagements, remember) and shooting from the prone, however, I cannot observe the bullet impact with my muzzle brake-equipped 6.5 Creedmoor rifle, despite the fact that the TRG-22 is a much heavier gun than the Tikka. Furthermore, the issue of a law enforcement sniper’s being able to observe his hits as they occur deserves some discussion of its own.

To reiterate, law enforcement sniping differs from competitive shooting in a number of ways. Although it’s not always true, snipers usually have spotters who observe the bullet impact and reaction of the target. That makes the sniper’s observing his impacts himself less important. And because snipers seldom shoot at real mission targets conveniently placed in front of earthen berms, their misses may be impossible to observe at all; if he can’t call his shot by the traditional method of observing the sight picture at the moment of discharge, neither he nor his spotter is likely to have any idea where the bullet went even if he were shooting a 22 Long Rifle target gun. (I have a Winchester model 52 that I sometimes use for shooting at pieces of pasta suspended from strings and that swing in the wind. The only way I can observe an impact with that setup is if the bullet hits the target; otherwise the best I can do is assume the bullet went where the sight was pointed when I fired.)

Another significant way that sniping differs from target shooting is that it’s seldom possible or necessary—and certainly not desired—to fire multiple shots. Because of the close distances and relatively large targets involved most of the time, LE snipers usually don’t miss (based on what I’ve heard, anyway). If a sniper does miss, however, the target usually doesn’t obligingly wait in the same stationary place to be shot at again. All that is probably why that though LE snipers worry about most other marksmanship factors, I have never once seen any discussion in law enforcement or military sniping literature about choosing less-powerful cartridges to permit seeing the impact of one’s shot.

In other words, the lighter recoil of the 6.5 offers no practical advantage at reasonably likely LE sniping engagement distances, just as its external ballistics offer no practical advantages at such distances, and may even suffer the disadvantage of less projectile power.

None of that discussion means that agencies like the Secret Service or other agencies don’t have good sensible reasons for switching sniper cartridges from 308 to 6.5. But if they don’t have good reasons for the switch, it wouldn’t be the first time a decision was made because of the bandwagon effect.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 38664 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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For typical domestic LE, 7.62 makes sense.

For SOCOM, USSS counter-sniper duty, and the open country along the southern border, 6.5 also makes sense.




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Posts: 3760 | Location: Oregon | Registered: October 02, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by LDD:
You guys are missing the point:

6.5 CM can penetrate two ballistic plates duct taped to your back, whereas .308 cannot.

Therefore 6.5CM > .308. Even a mall ninja could figure that out.


This. Somewhere, Gecko45 is working out how to get around this. He's probably sourcing vibranium as I type this.


What, me worry?
 
Posts: 1965 | Location: Central Florida | Registered: September 27, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by DennisM:
quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:


The 6.5 Creedmoor is indeed better for long distance engagements, but what’s the chance that a DHS sniper will ever be shooting someone at 900 yards? A shooter spending his own money and wanting to win competitions will choose equipment based on what is best for his purposes, whereas when it’s taxpayer money, all that matters is if someone can convince his bosses that all the cool kids are using it.


The primary DHS consumers of the new setup will be USSS. Their shooters might train for longer-range shots, but in their normal working "bubble," 300 or less. Also, it's unlikely, IMO, that the sudden need for 6.5 is being driven by the guys who are actually shooting.

I'm skeptical of change for the sake of change.


Possibly, though I recall USSS was running 7mm Magnum counter sniper rifles for years due to longer range shots. Coming from a 7mm mag, a 6.5 CM is actually a step down in terms of range.

Another significant DHS user will likely be the U.S. Border Patrol’s BORTAC teams which often operate in remote areas including open areas and mountains which present long range shots. They have been using Remington 700 bolt guns and KAC M110’s in .308 as do ICE’s SRT teams.

USBP and ICE are both several times the size of USSS.

I’m curious if the US Coast Guard will be getting any of these. There are several long range applications in maritime and maritime aviation environments. I know they have Robar .50 cal bolt guns for disabling boat engines.
 
Posts: 320 | Location: Texas | Registered: March 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Fundman:
Homeland Security includes Border Patrol and Secret Service which are often involved in shootings. I even recall a 2005 incident when Air Marshals fatally shot a passenger at Miami International Airport.


Just to expand on this Homeland Security is a Department, like the Department of Justice, meaning it is an umbrella organization which includes several law enforcement agencies with armed LEOs. These include:

The U.S. Secret Service approx 5k LEO

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement - approx 16k LEO

U.S. Customs and Border Protection - approx 43k LEO including approx. 20k US Border Patrol, 20k CBO Field Operations (ports of entry) and 3k Air and Marine Operations.

The Federal Protective Service (security for federal buildings)

The Federal Air Marshal Service

The U.S. Coast Guard approx 40k plus another 7k reserve.

On another note, everyone in this thread is talking about the ballistics instead of logistics. Testing, selecting and contracting all cost money. Many DHS components obtain equipment via existing DOD and SOCOM contracts. This occurs between other federal agencies as well, buying off other agencies existing contracts instead of reinventing the wheel is simple efficiency.

Never underestimate the value of something being “already in the system.”
 
Posts: 320 | Location: Texas | Registered: March 25, 2013Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by fritz:
On the first page of this thread, LDD states that 6.5 Creedmoor penetrates ballistic plates better than 308.


Sorry, that was a Gecko45 joke.

6.5 Creedmore may pen armor better than .308 due to the bullet construction and MV, but I don't have any evidence or personal experience that it does, in fact, do so better than .308.
 
Posts: 17407 | Registered: August 12, 2000Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Not that I don’t believe in being prepared for reasonably likely contingencies, but I would really be interested in learning the details of any confirmed incident in which a DHS law enforcement officer shot someone at a distance of over 300 yards, and most important, how it was justified. That’s not something that has been reported in the law enforcement sniping literature that I’ve been able to find.

As I recall, a couple of Border Patrol agents got pretty well jacked up over shooting someone who was fleeing and not posing a direct threat to them, and that was at close distance with their pistols. I’ve probably got some of the details of that incident wrong, but although I spend a lot of time thinking about possible deadly force scenarios to discuss with students, I’m having a very difficult time imagining what sorts of incidents have occurred in which LE snipers were coming under fire at extended ranges and had to (or wished they could have) engage(d) the attacker with countersniper fire. These are the things that fascinate me and truly pique my interest, but I’ve never heard of any.

I absolutely understand why the Secret Service might want to be ready to engage in countersniper activities, and I believe a precision rifle chambered for 7mm Remington Magnum or something similar would be an excellent choice. But an agency that’s not involved in protective service activities—? Just operating in wide open spaces doesn’t really seem like it would make such a possibility very likely.

What’s more, a hundred and fifty years or so of military experience has demonstrated countless times that countersniping when the opposition sniper can see one’s location and activities is extremely dangerous: Bang! A bullet zips by my head or takes down a teammate, so I run to my vehicle, grab the rifle case and other necessary gear, look around for a suitable shooting position, move there, get set up, and all that time the other guy is just waiting for me to try to find him and return fire. Hmm … not too likely.

If I’m overlooking something with all this, I’m truly seeking an explanation of what it is because it isn’t clear now.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 38664 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
quote:
Originally posted by benny6:
I've never owned a 6.5. How many rounds can you get through a barrel before it needs to be changed?

I pulled my stainless Bartlein Creedmoor at 3,236 rounds. The barrel still shot pretty well at 100 yards, say 1/2 MOA -ish, but groups were beginning so expand a bit. I experienced a few low flyers for long distance targets at the first match of the season. Low flyers are odd for me -- when I yank shots they almost always go high. An ELR match was coming soon, so I had my 'smith install a new barrel.

My 'smith said it looked like I "shot the shit out of that barrel". There was some serious throat erosion and a long jump to the lands. I did not chrono my factory Hornady 140 ELD and Amax ammo, but based on down range elevations, MV couldn't have decreased very much. IMO this means Hornady's 140s tolerate jump pretty well.

Other shooters who have shot out 6.5x47 and 6.5 Creedmoor barrels have stated my round count is in the ballpark for 6.5 barrel replacement. I have seen webz reports of shooters going to 4,000 rounds before replacing barrels, but that really seems to be the high end for precision shooters.

FWIW, my stainless Bartlein 308 barrel now has 4,600 rounds and is still shooting well. But I'm carefully watching its performance.


I only have one .308 left, and I kinda want the barrel to wear out, so I can replace it with another 6.5. Big Grin The 6mm CM and XC are impressive too, but I see the 6.5 CM as more versatile for hunting, which I do in addition to PRS. And I expect better barrel life than the 6mm.

It's pretty amazing how popular the 6.5CM has become in such a short amount of time. I can't recall another rifle cartridge increasing that much in my lifetime. But there have been so many new cartridges introduced lately (all with PRS type shooting in mind), that I can't see all of them surviving over time.
 
Posts: 3390 | Registered: June 27, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
Not that I don’t believe in being prepared for reasonably likely contingencies, but I would really be interested in learning the details of any confirmed incident in which a DHS law enforcement officer shot someone at a distance of over 300 yards, and most important, how it was justified. That’s not something that has been reported in the law enforcement sniping literature that I’ve been able to find.

As I recall, a couple of Border Patrol agents got pretty well jacked up over shooting someone who was fleeing and not posing a direct threat to them, and that was at close distance with their pistols. I’ve probably got some of the details of that incident wrong, but although I spend a lot of time thinking about possible deadly force scenarios to discuss with students, I’m having a very difficult time imagining what sorts of incidents have occurred in which LE snipers were coming under fire at extended ranges and had to (or wished they could have) engage(d) the attacker with countersniper fire. These are the things that fascinate me and truly pique my interest, but I’ve never heard of any.

I absolutely understand why the Secret Service might want to be ready to engage in countersniper activities, and I believe a precision rifle chambered for 7mm Remington Magnum or something similar would be an excellent choice. But an agency that’s not involved in protective service activities—? Just operating in wide open spaces doesn’t really seem like it would make such a possibility very likely.

What’s more, a hundred and fifty years or so of military experience has demonstrated countless times that countersniping when the opposition sniper can see one’s location and activities is extremely dangerous: Bang! A bullet zips by my head or takes down a teammate, so I run to my vehicle, grab the rifle case and other necessary gear, look around for a suitable shooting position, move there, get set up, and all that time the other guy is just waiting for me to try to find him and return fire. Hmm … not too likely.

If I’m overlooking something with all this, I’m truly seeking an explanation of what it is because it isn’t clear now.


Do you think Border Patrol agents never take sniper fire? And if the cartel wars heat up even more, and if they retaliate against Border Patrol even more, they are going to need some good long range shooters, potentially with more range than .308 offers. And it's not just longer maximum range. People (who don't shoot at distance) have no idea how much easier it is to make hits at 800 yards with a 6.5CM, than it is with a .308 (or even at 400 yards). But apparently you think they are better off running away, than engaging the threat?

Why would they want 7mm Rem Mag? It adds a ton of recoil, with shorter service life, and 6.5CM is more than adequate for human threats.
 
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