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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
I’m fortunate in having several bolt action rifles, but if you’re going to have just one, the answer depends on how you intend to shoot the rifle.

If you might use it for big game hunting, a few times, occasionally, or maybe every couple of years, then 308 is the obvious choice regardless of your other purposes.

If, however, it’s just for home defense (more about that in a bit) and practice to become more proficient, 223 is far better. Less recoil means you can get more out of your sessions, and of course with the right ammunition it’s much less expensive. Ruger seems to be one of the few companies that understands that such guns these days should be capable of firing 5.56mm NATO ammunition safely in addition to 223 Remington. Some inexpensive 223 is available, but 5.56 gives many more options. I have a Tikka T3 in 223 and when I go to the range to shoot dot drills, I easily go through 50-100 rounds. I would not want to do that with a 308.

Although a bolt action rifle can obviously be used for defensive purposes, there are also obviously better choices. I’m no fan of long guns for self-defense inside most residences, and a bolt action would be my least favorite. But you didn’t ask that question, so I hope you enjoy your choice. Smile


You're afraid of shooting 50 to 100 rounds of .308 in one day? What a wuss you are.

Actually, I'm a wuss too and if it weren't for the fact my competition rifle weighs near 18 pounds, I would not enjoy shooting 70+ rounds in a day, prone. When I was shooting the 180gr bullets, the rifle was just a joy to shoot, but when I went to the 210gr bullets, I could tell the difference. A single day is fine, but the multiple days in big matches, well that can start wearing thin.

And of course, a Scout Rifle has to be in .308 else it's not a Scout Rifle.
 
Posts: 2743 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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30-30 or 7.62x39. God Bless Smile


"Always legally conceal carry. At the right place and time, one person can make a positive difference."
 
Posts: 2018 | Location: Sector 0001 | Registered: October 30, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
John has a
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Got a trotting elk last fall at 250 yards with a .308 GSR with a forward mounted Leupold scout scope.
I truly love that rifle, but the Mossberg MVP in .556 is a close second. It's nice to be able to use 30-round AR mags (though it usually carries 20-rounders).

I'd say for a "scout rifle" stick to .308. I'd also say "get one of each". A guy's just got to have choices...
 
Posts: 446 | Location: Behind enemy lines in Occupied Colorado | Registered: June 16, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have a GSR in 308. Fantastic rifle! Don't discount the GSR in 6.5CM. Flatter shooting & able to take any game in the lower 48.


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Posts: 236 | Registered: September 30, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Age Quod Agis
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I understand that it's not a "scout rifle" as defined by Cooper in that it's semi-auto and almost 9 pounds, but I am really enjoying my Springfield Scout Squad 18" barrel.

It brings most of the handiness of a short bolt gun, and the easy carry of a "traditional" format rather than an AR pattern gun along with the serious firepower of a semi-auto with up to 20 round mags.

I'll freely admit that I like shooting AR pattern guns, but I don't like carrying them, either by hand or in a sling. I much prefer a traditional format. The M1A with the shortened barrel gets me all of that. In addition, recoil with that set up is insignificant.

Obviously, in places where semi-auto's are restricted for hunting, this may not be a good choice, but it is very useful if the zombies come.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: ArtieS,



"We may consent to be governed, but we will not be ruled." - Kevin D. Williamson, 2012

"All the citizens of this land are of right freemen; they owe no allegiance to any class and should recognize no task-masters. Under the chart of their liberties, under the law of high heaven, they are free and without shackles on their limbs nor mortgages upon the fruits of their brain or muscles; they bow down before no prince, potentate, or sovereign, nor kiss the royal robes of any crowned head; they render homage only to their God and should pay tribute only to their Government. Such at least is the spirit of our institutions, the character of our written national compact."

Charles Triplett O’Ferrall of Virginia - In Congress, May 1, 1888
 
Posts: 9162 | Location: Central Florida | Registered: November 02, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by djpaintles:
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
And?

There are areas where you can't hunt with a Scout Rifle, like parts of Iowa, Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio.

That's beside the point.


Those are places you can't hunt with ANY rifle as in Shotgun only. .


False.


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Posts: 7058 | Location: One step ahead of you | Registered: February 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Those areas only allow "straight-walled cartridges", but that doesn't mean only shotguns. Rifles chambered in certain calibers are allowed.

For example, pistol cartridges like .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum and rifle cartridges like .450 Bushmaster and .45-70 are "straight-walled".
 
Posts: 20769 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Okay, thanks for all the replies and information. My objective wasn't to comply with Col. Coopers original idea, more of I like the way the Ruger Scout's look and feel: nimble. Secondly, I really wasn't interested in adding another caliber: I have plenty 223/5.56, but, under the right circumstances would consider the .308. Also, I do have a 223 can, so, there's that.

What I'm tryig to correctly anticipate is should I be in a position of travel, hunting, hd, etc. (I guess an all around rifle), would the Ruger Scout in 223 fit the bill.

Yes, I have several AR's and AK's. But I also have lever rifles in .357 and 30-30, as well as 9mm rifles. Each have their own limitation(s), and I was wondering if the Scout in 223 had less limitation.

Again, the perspective everyone has provided is appreciated and given me much to ponder.


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Posts: 6892 | Location: Raleighwood | Registered: June 27, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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There are also states like Massachusetts that limit certain species to certain weapons. In Mass, while you can hunt raccoon and bear with a rifle, deer is restricted to bow, muzzleloader and shotgun. I know that there has been a "straight wall cartridge" movement in Mass for a while, but I don't think it has been successful.

ETA given the new information in your post: Short answer is "yes" with a qualifying "but" if you go .223, and the "but" of course is the power limitation of the round. If I were going to do it, I'd bite the caliber bullet and go with either a 6.5 Creedmoor or the .308.



"We may consent to be governed, but we will not be ruled." - Kevin D. Williamson, 2012

"All the citizens of this land are of right freemen; they owe no allegiance to any class and should recognize no task-masters. Under the chart of their liberties, under the law of high heaven, they are free and without shackles on their limbs nor mortgages upon the fruits of their brain or muscles; they bow down before no prince, potentate, or sovereign, nor kiss the royal robes of any crowned head; they render homage only to their God and should pay tribute only to their Government. Such at least is the spirit of our institutions, the character of our written national compact."

Charles Triplett O’Ferrall of Virginia - In Congress, May 1, 1888
 
Posts: 9162 | Location: Central Florida | Registered: November 02, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Here is an American Rifleman “throwback” article written by Jeff Cooper about the “Scout” rifle concepts and development history. For anyone truly interested in the idea, the article is worth reading, IMO, because it punctures some of the myths that now exist about the concept.

The Scout rifle as envisioned by Cooper was not limited to the 308 Winchester chambering. He specifically mentioned that the 7mm-’08 had better ballistics and also mentioned the 6.5mm Remington Magnum, the 350 Remington Magnum, and 35 Whelen as Scout rifle cartridges. As a current cartridge of interest, if the 6.5 Creedmoor had been available in his day, it’s hard to imagine that it wouldn’t have been on his list of “acceptable” cartridges as well.

Regarding the rifle’s sight, Cooper focused on the low-power, extended eye relief scopes available 30+ years ago. His reason for mounting the scope far forward was to reduce the degree that the shooter’s field of view was blocked when shooting (or acquiring the target, anyway) with both eyes open. Again, though, the Scout concept was limited then by the types of scopesights available. Some of the ones mentioned in the article were no longer available even at the time. I don’t know much about the availability of magnifying extended eye relief sights these days, but anyone interested in the Scout concept of a sight that can be used for fast target acquisition should obviously consider our countless red dot options of different varieties.

Aimpoint sights, for example, offer unlimited eye relief: they can be mounted as far forward on the rifle as desired. With that type of sight, though, there is no advantage to mounting it forward of the receiver. In fact, if we’re considering only what we can see through the lens tube of the sight, the farther forward it’s mounted, the narrower the field of view. The other consideration is how much the body of the sight blocks our peripheral vision. With both eyes open, the combined images our brain receives allows us to “see through” much of a sight body and tube. I have one of the sights mentioned in the article as being ideal, the Leupold M8 2× Extended Eye Relief scope. When used at its optimum position, it blocks as much of my peripheral vision as my Aimpoint CompML3—if not more because of its longer length.

The only disadvantage of a nonmagnifying sight is of course that it doesn’t provide any magnification. If we didn’t require that (and I use my Aimpoints on man-sized silhouette targets to 200 yards and beyond), the Aimpoint or similar sights would be superior in many ways to the sights Cooper was limited to 30 years ago.

Finally there is the question of an autoloading “Scout” rifle. Cooper addresses that as well, and simply states that at the time there were no suitable autoloading guns that met the other Scout criteria. But today? Probably the most difficult criteria to meet with an AR-type rifle is the weight. Cooper’s standard for the Scout was 3 kilograms (6.6 pounds). Based on some quick research, it seems that most AR-10 type guns run a minimum of 9-10 pounds without scope and ammunition. Other than the weight issue, though, there are many guns now available that would do anything the original Scout could be used for, and much more.

But if I wanted a super nimble bolt action rifle, I’d hunt up one of the many ultralights chambered for my cartridge of choice and put an Aimpoint Micro on it.




“Most men … can seldom accept the simplest and most obvious truth if it … would oblige them to admit the falsity of conclusions … which they have woven, thread by thread, into the fabrics of their lives.”
— Leo Tolstoy
 
Posts: 38203 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I think the 243 would be ideal. It bridges the gap between the 223 and 308. Its available for cheap anywhere that 308 would be sold but does have the recoil of 308 while still being able to put down anything in north America short of perhaps Moose or Grizzly. Its cheap, accurate and when there are ammo shortages and 308 disappears....243 is still there.


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Posts: 7058 | Location: One step ahead of you | Registered: February 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Ruger has added the 450 Bushmaster to their Scout lineup. That would fit right in with Cooper's "Thumper" concept.


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Posts: 983 | Location: Dakota Territory | Registered: June 20, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by craigcpa:
My objective wasn't to comply with Col. Coopers original idea, more of I like the way the Ruger Scout's look and feel: nimble. Secondly, I really wasn't interested in adding another caliber: I have plenty 223/5.56, but, under the right circumstances would consider the .308. Also, I do have a 223 can, so, there's that.

What I'm tryig to correctly anticipate is should I be in a position of travel, hunting, hd, etc. (I guess an all around rifle), would the Ruger Scout in 223 fit the bill.

Yes, I have several AR's and AK's. But I also have lever rifles in .357 and 30-30, as well as 9mm rifles. Each have their own limitation(s), and I was wondering if the Scout in 223 had less limitation.

As I suspected, Cooper's definition of a scout rifle was different than yours.

It appears you already have firearms options for HD. AR, AK, lever action, and 9mm carbines are flat out superior to a bolt action rifle for HD. You should not attempt to justify your purchase of a Ruger Scout as a HD rifle. You're just kidding yourself if you do.

So let's look at the Ruger Scout .223 for hunting. In some states a .223 round cannot be used for medium game, which means a 223 becomes a varmint rifle in those areas. So....what do you plan to hunt? If deer or larger is on the list, I recommend a larger bore than 223. If varmints are on the list, I think a different rifle is a better. I don't care much for the scope-forward position of a scout rifle for small targets -- like varmints. IMO it's better to have the scope right over the action, not far from your eye for little critters. You have more options for optics that sit right over the action. I feel a higher-power scope is better for varmints. You'll have a challenge finding a higher-power scope which sits forward of the action, as with a scout-type rifle.

Given your limited definition of "travel", I won't attempt to recommend a rifle.

As I stated in an earlier post, if you want to buy a Ruger Scout, then just buy it. You may have a specific use or it, or you may not. Understand that a jack-of-all-trades tool is rarely a master of any.
 
Posts: 5380 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by WARPIG602:
quote:
Originally posted by djpaintles:
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
And?

There are areas where you can't hunt with a Scout Rifle, like parts of Iowa, Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio.

That's beside the point.


Those are places you can't hunt with ANY rifle as in Shotgun only. .


False.


http://www.imbmonsterbucks.com...gun-only-states.html

"These states are inclusive of Illinois, Iowa, Ohio, Indiana, Maryland, New Jersey, Massachuetts, Delaware, Maine, and Rhode Island. Three states impose “shotgun only” restrictions on firearm hunters in designated areas. These include Minnesota, Michigan, and Virginia."

https://www.huntingnet.com/for...gun-only-states.html

What I said was correct. There ARE shotgun only states and areas in other states. There are even some you can only hunt with straight walled rifle cases......


Remember, this is all supposed to be for fun...................
 
Posts: 3647 | Registered: April 06, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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That's old info, djpaintles. That hunting forum thread is from 2005. The IMB Monster Bucks article is undated, but was written based on data collected from 1994-1998.

Over the 13 to 24 years since those articles and posts were written or the data was collected, those four specific states I mentioned have relaxed their "shotgun only" regulations, and now allow rifles with straight walled cartridges. But traditional Scout Rifles chambered in things like .308, .243, or 7mm-08 still wouldn't be allowed there, nor would the other common scout rifle calibers discussed in this thread, like 6.5 Creedmore or .223.

(Luckily for folks in those areas, it looks like Ruger has taken that into account, and recently began offering a compliant Ruger Scout in .450 Bushmaster, a great straight-walled hunting cartridge.)
 
Posts: 20769 | Location: Northwest Arkansas | Registered: January 06, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yes, changes in ‘shotgun zone only’ for deer hunting the last number of years.

I’ve used a 308 and 243 for hunting in IL. The 308 was a ‘damage control’ deer shoot/hunt. The 243 was for coyote hunting. That’s the same in many areas, no rifle for deer, but one can use a 300 Win mag for coyote if they want, outside of the deer seasons.

PA had some semi-auto restrictions I thought, even they seemed to be relaxed recently, for hunting. Of course States may have mag limits and all the rest.
 
Posts: 3377 | Location: WI | Registered: February 29, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by djpaintles:
quote:
Originally posted by WARPIG602:
quote:
Originally posted by djpaintles:
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
And?

There are areas where you can't hunt with a Scout Rifle, like parts of Iowa, Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio.

That's beside the point.


Those are places you can't hunt with ANY rifle as in Shotgun only. .


False.


http://www.imbmonsterbucks.com...gun-only-states.html

"These states are inclusive of Illinois, Iowa, Ohio, Indiana, Maryland, New Jersey, Massachuetts, Delaware, Maine, and Rhode Island. Three states impose “shotgun only” restrictions on firearm hunters in designated areas. These include Minnesota, Michigan, and Virginia."

https://www.huntingnet.com/for...gun-only-states.html

What I said was correct. There ARE shotgun only states and areas in other states. There are even some you can only hunt with straight walled rifle cases......


I was simply saying Iowa is not Shotgun only.


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Posts: 7058 | Location: One step ahead of you | Registered: February 10, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by WARPIG602:
I think the 243 would be ideal. It bridges the gap between the 223 and 308. Its available for cheap anywhere that 308 would be sold but does have the recoil of 308 while still being able to put down anything in north America short of perhaps Moose or Grizzly. Its cheap, accurate and when there are ammo shortages and 308 disappears....243 is still there.


.243 is hard on barrels, though. I have been told good accuracy goes away in about 500 rounds, and the barrel is toast after about 2,500 rounds. A .260 would go at least 2,000 rounds before match grade accuracy is gone. However the 6.5 Creedmoor barrels last much longer.


-c1steve
 
Posts: 2173 | Location: West coast | Registered: March 31, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by djpaintles:
quote:
Originally posted by RogueJSK:
And?

There are areas where you can't hunt with a Scout Rifle, like parts of Iowa, Michigan, Indiana, and Ohio.

That's beside the point.


Those are places you can't hunt with ANY rifle as in Shotgun only. The point is there are places you can hunt with rifles but not Semi-Autos i.e. where I hunt in PA. And there are also places where semi auto's are Legal but unfortunately frowned upon.

I've hunted with AR's, Scar-17's, H&K 91 and Scout Rifles and for Hunting I find the handling of my Steyr Scout to be far superior. I think Scout rifles are superior tools for hunting and I've used both. For Self defense the semi-autos would of course be far superior.
I'm assuming the OP's location listed as Raleighwood means North Carolina.

Several of the formely shotgun only states mentioned are now Straight Walled Rifle Cartridges hunting states (e.g. Michigan) and .450 Bushmaster makes sense in those states.

Cooper passed away before the 6.5 Creedmoor was invented. I'd take a 18.7" barreled 6.5 Creedmoor scout rifle before .308 or 5.56.



Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity

DISCLAIMER: These are the author's own personal views and do not represent the views of the author's employer.
 
Posts: 15978 | Location: N. Houston, TX | Registered: November 14, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have a cousin near Burlington with a Ruger scout in 308 and it’s all he uses for deer now. I have no use for one but after holding it, I wanted one anyway.
 
Posts: 11017 | Location: Shenandoah Valley, VA | Registered: October 16, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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