quote:

Originally posted by ILL DILL:
I really want a magnified optic on this rifle, however, I can't decide on what to do.

I have an Eotech 512 that I could drop on it at any moment should I choose.

I also know where to get a NIB M500AB for $430, which I think is a good deal.

I have a Vickers Blue Force sling on it now.

If I go with what I have it would be...

Matech Buis, EoTech 512, Vickers sling. Thats simple, however, I want magnification!!!

If I was smart I would buy that M500AB and call it a day.

Make a choice and it will either be the right choice or the wrong one but at lest you will have made one.

If it was only that easy...

Further, I'm still not convinced that a red dot sight offers any advantages over irons.

I'm pretty good with irons and I alos feel that irons are far better for longer ranges than a red dot.

But, honestly, I dont' have much time behind a red dot so I might be off on this.

quote:

Originally posted by ILL DILL:
If it was only that easy...

Further, I'm still not convinced that a red dot sight offers any advantages over irons.

I'm pretty good with irons and I alos feel that irons are far better for longer ranges than a red dot.

But, honestly, I dont' have much time behind a red dot so I might be off on this.

This is my thinking also. At close distances, 60 or so yards, I am right on with iron sights, so, I just may leave well enough alone and save the cash. In 65,66, and 67 it was iron sights alone and I came home. I feel sometimes that I was in the stone age compared to what is available today.

If you like the Eotech and want iron sights too, I highly recommend the Eotech + RRA Dominator 2 mount.

I have it on one of my AR's and it's great. The mount raises the Eotech window just enough for easy aquisition and the irons basically co-witness in the bottom third portion of the Eotech window. You have iron sights without it cluttering up your view. So the red dot is there and to go to your back up should it fail, just move your field of view through the irons.

Thanks, Possum.
Another item goes on the ever expanding list.
I may never retire.

quote:

Originally posted by ILL DILL:
If it was only that easy...

Further, I'm still not convinced that a red dot sight offers any advantages over irons.

I'm pretty good with irons and I alos feel that irons are far better for longer ranges than a red dot.

But, honestly, I dont' have much time behind a red dot so I might be off on this.

For plinking and general range use, irons are great. There's something very satisfying about taking the time to align sights and pop a target that you can't even see clearly (front sight focus). For folks with astigmatism, the smaller aperture also makes it easier to see the front sight properly. Red dots and astigmatism don't really get along very well.

However, the vast body of experience with red dot sights (including a bit of my own) clearly shows that fighting with a rifle is much more effective using red dots than irons. Removing the need to align sights means that shooting in situations where a proper stance or cheekweld is not possible and time is of the essence (this is pretty much most of combat) is much more easily accomplished. Red dots are also easier to use when you're amped on adrenaline, fatigued, injured, or otherwise impaired.

As for shooting at longer ranges -- if you actually dial the come-ups into the A2 rear sight, then yes, you're better off using irons. However, if you've figured out roughly where to holdover on the dot at known distances, you can make longer range shots much faster than someone dialing in their irons. It's really just a matter of practice and familiarity. That having been said, I think a magnified optic with some sort of holdover reticle will always be better at a distance than either irons or a red dot sight.

Yes, for any given individual, irons may be fine. But for the vast majority of people finding themselves in harm's way, red dots are literally a lifesaver.

Of course, if SHTF for you means TEOTWAWKI, then irons are the better choice. Heck, you'd be better off with a muzzle loader, since the close tolerance components in your AR will eventually fail with no way to replace them. Otherwise, a red dot sight on a SHTF rifle is almost a requirement.

IMHO, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by ILL DILL:
Further, I'm still not convinced that a red dot sight offers any advantages over irons.

I'm pretty good with irons and I alos feel that irons are far better for longer ranges than a red dot.

That's why I took the EOTech 512 off my 6920 and it moved over to my LMT. I never saw any really significant advantages over just using the carry handle alone, and the carry handle alone is a LOT lighter than an EOTech + BUIS. I'm not a good enough shooter for there to be much difference there, or maybe it just means I'm decent with the irons. Several months later I'm not really missing the EOTech + BUIS, and I'm really liking the lighter weight and think that the light weight is a huge plus for a SHTF type of gun.

This makes me think that if I go with anything for the SHTF 6920, it should be something like a TA31F for a little bit of flexibility. But then again, irons are pretty decent for medium distances, too, so I can never pull the trigger and spend the money on something like a 31F.

Well, If you're just plinking then it won't matter much and you can't really justify optics. But I thought you wanted a SHTF rifle? This is a bit of a unknown since SHTF could mean just about anytime and anywhere.

If you're just thinking about using it at the range and basing it on that then you'll have to think outside the box. Your eye is immediately drawn to the dot and since there's no lining up of the sights, it's just point and shoot. Day time or night, it doesn't matter, you can still see the dot.

The MIL was slow to adopt as well. Now it seems everyone has an Eotech, Aimpoint or ACOG.
Spend some time on a site with lots of MIL and see what they talk about. www.m4carbine.net is a good one.

It is a SHTF gun...as well as a range gun.

It's primary purpose is defense, but, I still enjoy shooting and will bring it to the range because otherwise...it would be a safe queen as thankfully there aren't to many days in Mclean VA that I will need it.

For some reason I have fallen out of love with my EoTech. I think it's the shorter battery life. However, I do like the 1MOA dot over the Aimpoint 2/4 MOA...

In all reality the best set up for me, dispite my want/need for magnification, is the following...

1. Fixed BUIS
2. EOtech/AIMpoint
3. Surefire M500AB

I think I have settled on that. One of the main reasons I wanted magnification was for target ID and reconing my route/what's up ahead.

Target ID isn' so important for my purpose as I'm never going to be in a rolling 150+ yard gunfight. For recon/route recon etc I can carry a small monocular that is light weight.

Thats it, I have decided, now......

AimPoint or EoTech?

Which fixed BUIS?

Which monocular?

quote:

Originally posted by ILL DILL:
Thats it, I have decided, now......

AimPoint or EoTech?

Which fixed BUIS?

Which monocular?

Well, if I mentioned this before but if I was going to choose an Aimpoint I would go with the Comp M4 or the Micro T-1. The M4 is the Army's new CCO M68. It has outstanding battery life (+9yrs) and uses standard AA's. The T-1, even though it's small has excellent battery life (+5yrs)as well. Keep in mind that you'll probably want to mount these pretty far forward so the dot does become smaller. I've seen the T-1's mounted as far as half way up the handguard.

Now if I had to choose an Eotech, I'd probably go with the 512 as the best deal. Doesn't have NV capability but overall is a good unit. I guess the 516 is the new one though. Looks similar to the 557 (but with CR123) with the raised base and the buttons on the side. Keep in mind with an Eotech, you have to keep pressing the up button to turn on the unit and turn it up so the reticle is bright enough to see. (It's not as fast as the Aimpoints in this respect.)

Fixed BUIS? I'd go with either the LaRue DP Iron Sights or Troy Flip-ups in the back. I use a standard FSB up front. Flip-up's would make the reticle cleaner BUT you'd have to flip the sight up for use. If the electronics failed, you wouldn't have to remove the optic to do so either. Otherwise, maybe the LMT BUIS would work as well. LaRue's is pretty basic and very clean. No elevation.

Monocular? You want magnification again? Eotech's is cheaper overall BUT the quality of the glass isn't as good as the Aimpoints. Well that's for the 3x Eotech. The 4x is supposed to be pretty good. Still, you're looking at more then double the cost over the 3x. Then if you're on the inexpensive route, there is the LaRue mount with the Hensoldt 2.5x magnifier. It's a really good price and good optic.

quote:

Monocular? You want magnification again? Eotech's is cheaper overall BUT the quality of the glass isn't as good as the Aimpoints. Well that's for the 3x Eotech. The 4x is supposed to be pretty good. Still, you're looking at more then double the cost over the 3x. Then if you're on the inexpensive route, there is the LaRue mount with the Hensoldt 2.5x magnifier. It's a really good price and good optic.

I'm not talking about a gun mounted monocular. Just one that I can keep in a pocket.

I wish the Larue fixed BUIS had elevation... Although I guess once I have a 50 IBZ it doesn't really matter for this type of gun.

After reading a huge number of posts and opinions from 10-8 and m4carbine, I have pretty much decided to go with either the M4S or Micro T-1 instead of a variable scope. I can add the 3x magnifier with flip mount later if I want magnification.

I personally like the looks and 2 MOA of the M4S. This is what I will eventually put on mine. (At least this is the plan *right now*.)

quote:

Originally posted by ILL DILL:
I'm not talking about a gun mounted monocular. Just one that I can keep in a pocket.

I wish the Larue fixed BUIS had elevation... Although I guess once I have a 50 IBZ it doesn't really matter for this type of gun.

Typically they're called a Spotting scope. Again, good glass costs money. How far are you planning on looking and at what exactly? If you're looking for 223/556 holes then you'll need a lot of power. Otherwise a fixed 20x ( or a zoom around there) is probably good enough for most. 60mm is a decent size without getting too big. High power guy's seem to like the 80mm's but they're way too big if you're using it in a urban situation.

The reasoning behind the LaRue is simplicity. Since the sight is for Backup and not a primary, the S has already hit the F. They're not going to bother to set the windage but rather with enough practice, just know the proper hold over.

Basic M16 Commando. I chose the 223 over the AK because you'll be able to take all the ammo you need, off of Nation Gaurdsmen

This message has been edited. Last edited by: csmw,

quote:

Originally posted by Jeffy:

quote:

Originally posted by ILL DILL:
I'm not talking about a gun mounted monocular. Just one that I can keep in a pocket.

I wish the Larue fixed BUIS had elevation... Although I guess once I have a 50 IBZ it doesn't really matter for this type of gun.

Typically they're called a Spotting scope. Again, good glass costs money. How far are you planning on looking and at what exactly? If you're looking for 223/556 holes then you'll need a lot of power. Otherwise a fixed 20x ( or a zoom around there) is probably good enough for most. 60mm is a decent size without getting too big. High power guy's seem to like the 80mm's but they're way too big if you're using it in a urban situation.

The reasoning behind the LaRue is simplicity. Since the sight is for Backup and not a primary, the S has already hit the F. They're not going to bother to set the windage but rather with enough practice, just know the proper hold over.

I have a spotting scope, I want something much smaller.

One of the reasons I wanted magnification in the form of a rifle scope was for gathering information in a SHTF/on foot/TEOTWAWKI type thing.

1. If I'm traveling on foot or ina vehicle and I see a someone ahead, or a group ahead, I could use the scope to see what they are holding, doing, etc. If I don't like what I see I'll go another route. If it's two old ladies and I have scanned the surrounding area I'll keep on my route.

2. Target ID if I'm being fired on. However, this is so unlikley that I'm not using it as a reason anymore.

3. Fun at the range.

It's all over now because I just mounted my Matech 600 meter BUIS and my EOTech 512. It's done.

Now...

I want a small hand held monocular that can fit in a pocket...

Something like this but rugged and maybe a bit more magnification, like 12x.

http://www.opticsplanet.net/barska-10x25-atlantic-monocular.html

Even something like this although from the price I bet it's garbage. It doesn't have to be good glass, I just need to see what's out there. It does need to be rugged though.

Will any of these work for you>??

http://www.actiongear.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/agcatalog/results.tam?rlk=9185153

quote:

Originally posted by mrmn50:
Will any of these work for you>??

http://www.actiongear.com/cgi-bin/tame.exe/agcatalog/results.tam?rlk=9185153

Clicking your link gave me a failed search page. However, I did find a few things on there that looked good.

I might go for a $100-$150 gen one night vision monocular. How good is Gen 1?

Gen 1 is not too bad for the $$.
Go to Brigade Quartermasters and in the search bar pop in monocular.

Doublestar build with RAS rail. It wears a Holosight now. The Aimpoint is on my 9mm build.

Well, I have it all set up now.

Colt 6920 with an EoTech 512 and a Matech 600 meter right behind it.

Blue Force Vickers two point sling.

I don't know if I want to put a rail and foregrip on it. If I do decide to add a rail. What is generally considered the best free float rail available for a carbine?

I am really leaning towards the Surefire 500AB as opposed to a rail and add on light.