First: Please, please keep this discussion focused solely on the general question. There is no need to so much as mention specific recent events except for this request at the start.

My question is if there is a danger of random gunfire being directed at police lines that are set up for event security or other purposes, how valuable as a deterrent or for immediate response would it be to have snipers positioned to watch groups facing the police?

What would be the pro/cons and practical considerations of such practices? For example, in your experience would it even be possible to station snipers at effective elevated locations (tops of buildings, etc.)? What would be the public relations or other political considerations? Would it be acceptable for snipers to fire at individuals who were in close proximity to bystanders?

Is it something you know that your agency or other agencies have done?

Please note that I’m not referring to deploying snipers for VIP protection operations. Mention that if you like, but I’m referring to situations in which random police officers might be chosen as targets of opportunity as occurred in the Dallas incident some years ago.

And although I’m mostly interested in the LEOs’ responses, anyone else’s opinions on the subject would be welcome (if we stay on the general topic).

We used to have our swat snipers posted at every permitted march in the town I worked for. Three guys with rifles and spotters...but really they only passed info on things those of us on the street level couldn’t see. Mostly just gang members and people we knew who had warrants..

All of us were aware of the problem with a 308 entering someone’s head from above and leaving the bad guys head and into another citizen. So the big bosses were always mentioning it and making sure everyone knew if a shot was taken it had to be a last chance thing.

They’d also used them for Christmas parades etc...as they were great at giving out info. Seems that the thugs would use the crowds to steal and beef with other gang members.

During a KKK rally in the mid 90s the klan and the townsfolk got out of control and destroyed downtown.

When the KKK came back the next year they were permitted to march on one street for three blocks and the city had put up cables on the streets keeping them in the road, and citizens off the sidewalks....the citizens were allowed to gather and protest several streets away. The electric guys ran four or five wires of half inch power line horizontally along the roadway wrapping it around metal lampposts and tensioned it...the clan couldn’t get thru or under the wire...

No problems that year.

NYPD does it all the time as an SOP. As a building engineer I have to know when they're on one of my roofs from an access control standpoint.

I shot you an Email. If it doesnt come through please let me know or just shoot me an email.

quote:

Originally posted by Anubismp:
I shot you an Email.

Got it just now after returning from a training session. Thanks!

So you're telling us they're rioting in Leadville? Afraid the large minority population of Twin Lakes will head on down? Wanna keep an eye on Mosquito Pass for Antifa?

Not PD, but we used them down range. We din't use them for deterrence and had them hid. We used other assets for deterrence. They were invaluable for observation, you could see more of the crowd and deep into the crowd than you can on the ground. It's also useful if you have an active shooter in the crowd praying on it. it's hard to get a shot through the crowd from the ground. The observer/sniper can also talk ground elements onto a injured party or a bad actor.

You can get similar observation effects from drones or cameras.

Also consider the "optics" if your guys are spotted.

quote:

Originally posted by CD228:
We used other assets for deterrence.

I was thinking more of armed response than deterrence per se, although that would be a benefit. I’m thinking about snipers watching demonstrating crowds to respond to individuals who are firing at the police lines. I’ve been on overwatches myself, but we were concerned about attacks on crowds, not the police. Other than the Dallas incident, we’ve seen much more of that recently, and I’m wondering if appropriate live fire responses are being considered. (And I’ll leave mention of what prompted my question to that.)

We made no attempt to be discreet the times I participated in overwatches—just the opposite in fact—but public perceptions are of course extremely important. If people are already protesting against the police, having snipers conspicuously deployed would hardly be likely to defuse the situations—but it might prevent some things.

Sigfreund,
If I'm reading you right, thats a stick wicket. My guys never need to shoot thank god. I'm thinking they would try and play the angles, but I'm not sure. We had a significantly different liability/collateral damage environment then you did. I looked throught some of the opens source stuff and i can't find what i think you need.

Thanks, CD228. As I say, this is (I believe) an issue without a lot of precedent, at least in this country. After the Las Vegas Mandalay Bay incident there was in uptick in the types of overwatch missions I participated in, and I’m wondering now if current events are/will lead to similar changes. And my question really isn’t about me or even my agency because I cannot imagine it’s something that would ever be relevant here. It’s more academic interest. If you find something, great, but don’t go to a lot of trouble if it isn’t something you’re already familiar with.

quote:

Originally posted by sigfreund:
Thanks, CD228. As I say, this is (I believe) an issue without a lot of precedent, at least in this country. After the Las Vegas Mandalay Bay incident there was in uptick in the types of overwatch missions I participated in, and I’m wondering now if current events are/will lead to similar changes. And my question really isn’t about me or even my agency because I cannot imagine it’s something that would ever be relevant here. It’s more academic interest. If you find something, great, but don’t go to a lot of trouble if it isn’t something you’re already familiar with.

I tried to do a little more digging, but I can't find anything on paper. I'd recomend reaching through the NTOA or to the AMU, Army Sniper School or the SOTIC guys. Your switched on urban departments can probably help too.

We utilize overwatch positions on large gatherings of all sorts. We have not had any issues with push back from observes that can see the overwatch. We are in a conservative part of Idaho so we don't a lot of push back for things like that. We are careful though the overwatch, they draws up range cards, the rifles stay below the parapit that usually extends above the roof line on commercial buildings. The snipers observe with glass and if there is an issue the rifles come up to the top of the parapit wall but not without reason.

This is quite common and routinely practiced in the NJ/NY area. For example, in recent LEO line of duty deaths where there are hundreds or thousands of LEOs in attendance, you will always see multiple teams on the rooftops looking over. I can guarantee this is being done in large metro areas where they have unrest and uniformed members are holding the line.