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Deciding on an AR10--- UPDATE: LMT page 5 Login/Join 
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Well harken back to the early 2000s when the M4 carbine was crapping the bed under hard use for a variety of reasons. One of the fixes for this, was to have a F/A carrier. All things equal the F/A carrier was a little stronger and/ or heavier to do whatever it does to increase reliability even in a semi auto M4. We've come a long way since then, but it's still excepted that if you have a carbine length or shorter especially the F/A carrier provides benefit.

The AR-10 and my experience with reliability issues made me wonder if this carries over to the bigger frame also, part of the reason being I know it's a different animal than the 5.56 and has taken some years to get right. Which is why I want a factory gun by a reputable company that has done the R&D and or has the experience to deliver a reliable product.

I have semi auto carriers but they are in rifle length gas in 5.56 guns.

I have no plans to shoot my AR10 F/A.


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Posts: 6137 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You have cow?
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quote:
Originally posted by kimberkid:

I'm with you Pete, given the choice I always go with full auto ... Ya just never know when that DIAS could pop up from that a long lost uncle gives you in his will! (I don't think the AR15 DIAS would fit a 10 style rifle ... but why take chances ... he could leave you both!!![/QUOTE]



I do have lots of family in Indiana. The type you aren't sure if they are truckers or bikers, but they kinda look like Charlie Manson + 200lbs and probably killed just as many people. Or the type that built their own house and think giving a cat 1 warning shot to stay off their farm is good for 1 year. I wouldn't put it past some of them to have machine guns laying around. In fact I know for a fact my Grandpa somehow had an M2 carbine.

Maybe there is hope in my future. Big Grin


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Posts: 6137 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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every-time this thread moves up in the post list I think ok Slippery Pete has finally bought something. what is it??? But not today. 5 pages of posts and 6 weeks in I'm still waiting!


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 8850 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You have cow?
I lift cow!
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
every-time this thread moves up in the post list I think ok Slippery Pete has finally bought something. what is it??? But not today. 5 pages of posts and 6 weeks in I'm still waiting!


Please accept my deepest apologies sir. Pleasing your sensibilities by posting a picture of my new AR10 is my highest priority. We have people working round the clock, tirelessly, in spite of Corona to bring this gun porn to fruition, so that you may bask in the poor iPhone photos, and live vicariously through me for 10 mins or so. Razz

Said it before in this thread and I'll say it again. July is my mark. I aim to get there beforehand, so from now on if you open this and it's not July don't expect to see an AR10.

Also, giving the nature of ordering a new LMT rifle at this time it's difficult to guarantee July anyway. But I will be able to say, I did BUY the rifle, just waiting for it physically.


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Posts: 6137 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Touche' Pete. Whatever you get at this point I'm ordering the same thing just 'cause it will be the 'right' answer...


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 8850 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You have cow?
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You sure you wanna take on that burden? I've been hit in the head a lot, and been known to be impulsive and unpredictable. Hell, there's a sweet spot about 3.5 beers in the Sig at $1300 and the Rock River at $1500 start to make a lot of sense to me. Push that to 6 beers and it's me and my Noveske doing a Wolverines impression saving the USA from tyrannical Chinese Covid Lefty machine. At 12 beers, it's me and my M14 "Mallory" saving the day and I'm thinking more M14s. And at an unknown beer count, Another SCAR enters the picture, 13.5 SBRd and everything. I'm probably passed out cause that's certainly in my dreams. Cool




I'm pretty solid set on the LMT "battle rifle" and then picking up the LW 16 stainless 5R barrel and going from there. Problem being last I was quoted was July and if you miss that boat it's November. And that's if you pay now. So keep that in mind. LMT seems like they are picking up steam on the downhill.

Hard to beat LMT. No question about it. It's a true forever system with spare everything and all top quality. There's no argument unless it's weight that it's not the "right" answer. And seems like they cut that argument in half now.

Don't forget the optic too. I'm a year out on that one easy. So I'll be borrowing from other rifles to bridge the gap.


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Posts: 6137 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Remember Pete Sig has lifetime warranty and should be around long after where dead. So if the budget gun shits the bed send it back. If anything is wrong after the first 500 rounds ( .80 cent x 500 = $400 extra on top of the $1300) send it back.
This leaves room for good used glass and rings from a company who also will have a lifetime warranty.
One can aspire to greatness and still not have JoshNC collection. And who are we kidding Anyway only tier 1 unit we will ever be part of is 100 yard paper dot drills.
 
Posts: 5 | Location: Charlotte  | Registered: May 15, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The problem is that SIG-USA changes its rifle line up more than we change socks. What good is a warranty if there are no parts? Even I was starting to be tempted by the SIG.
 
Posts: 8770 | Location: Woodinville, WA | Registered: March 30, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
The problem is that SIG-USA changes its rifle line up more than we change socks. What good is a warranty if there are no parts? Even I was starting to be tempted by the SIG.


No parts for an AR10? Anything’s possible I guess.
 
Posts: 5 | Location: Charlotte  | Registered: May 15, 2020Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
Well harken back to the early 2000s when the M4 carbine was crapping the bed under hard use for a variety of reasons. One of the fixes for this, was to have a F/A carrier. All things equal the F/A carrier was a little stronger and/ or heavier to do whatever it does to increase reliability even in a semi auto M4. We've come a long way since then, but it's still excepted that if you have a carbine length or shorter especially the F/A carrier provides benefit.

IMO the root cause of the M4's challenges was its gas system. Para discusses this every now and then, using the either the terms dwell time or cork time.

AR15s work quite well with a 20" barrel, a rifle length gas system, a rifle weight buffer, and a rifle length buffer tube. If one shortens the system and lightens the components and doesn't change the gas port -- serious over gassing results. This is one reason that I will never have a carbine-length gas system. My 14.5" and 16" AR15s have mid-length gas systems. With carbine-length buffer tubes, these AR15s also have H2 buffers and heavier buffer springs. I have a mix of F/A and S/A carriers here -- with absolutely no issues with any AR15. I shoot suppressed.

A F/A carrier helps a severely over gassed AR15 carbine because it adds some weight. An H2 or H3 buffer does the same, and probably a whole lot better. So does a good buffer spring.

My 18" and 20" AR15s have rifle-length gas systems. They have rifle-length buffer tubes and of course a rifle buffer. I have a mix of F/A and S/A carriers, again without issues.

Severe over gassing of shorter barrels can be addressed with throttling back the gas. Some 3-gun competitors do this with adjustable gas valves and low-mass carriers. I believe Indiaboy does this. Offgrid accomplished this with tuning the gas port size on his 11" and 12" barrels

When I first got serious about an AR10, Jacob Bynum of Rifles Only introduced me to George Gardner of GA Precision. I told George that I wanted a GAP-10 in 6.5CM for competition. I wanted a longer barrel (say, 22-24") and would be shooting suppressed. George basically stated that they would not build me a 6.5CM GAP-10 with a barrel longer than 20" for suppressed use. The rifle would be overgassed, it would run poorly, and GAP's reputation would suffer. So I went a different route.

My 24" barrel 6CM and my 26" barrel 6.5CM uppers have extended-length gas systems -- rifle length plus 2 inches. These guns run really well, even though they are slightly over gassed while suppressed. They have Black Rain Ordnance F/A carriers -- I didn't order them that way, it's just how they arrived. Take a look at the barrels available at Craddock Precision's website. Lots of extended-length gas systems -- rifle plus 1" and rifle plus 2" -- for AR10 and 224 Valkyrie calibers. Craddock knows how gas systems affect performance.

IMO using a F/A carrier in a semi-auto just to make it cycle better is just a band aid attempt to cure a problem with the gas system.
 
Posts: 6608 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by SigCarolina:
quote:
Originally posted by Voshterkoff:
The problem is that SIG-USA changes its rifle line up more than we change socks. What good is a warranty if there are no parts? Even I was starting to be tempted by the SIG.


No parts for an AR10? Anything’s possible I guess.

The problem with the 10 is they aren’t completely standardized ... I don’t know about the 716 gen 2 but as I understand it, the receiver, barrel, bolt & handguard on my gen1 DMR is propriety and I know first hand you can’t switch the upper from a KAC, DPMS, Armalite or JP Enterprise on the SiG and none will switch with any other ... The stocks, buffer & triggers Are common.


If you really want something you'll find a way ...
... if you don't you'll find an excuse.

I'm really not a "kid" anymore ... but I haven't grown up yet either Wink
 
Posts: 5272 | Registered: January 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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So the LMT is supposed to run a little hot, and doesn't have adjustable gas block. I assume LMT makes things the way they are for a reason, and has done plenty of R&D to make sure it's uber reliable. I want to say the F/A bolt shrouded the firing pin or something like that too, not just slow it down due to weight. But I don't know, and I'm sure it's not a big deal on the LMT.

If I pick up a spare I might go that route.


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Posts: 6137 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
So the LMT is supposed to run a little hot, and doesn't have adjustable gas block.

A little over gassed often isn't a problem. A heavier carrier should help -- if it's not from LMT, be certain it is compatible with LMT specs.

If the over gassing is an issue down the road, give JP Rifles a call. They understand springs and buffers quite well. JP's parts are a bit pricey, however.
 
Posts: 6608 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
quote:
Originally posted by JoshNC:
quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
What issues have you seen between a S/A and F/A carrier on an AR15? I have both types on my various AR15s.

Failure to trip the auto sear on my model 614. Smile

The OP is not discussing F/A rifles. Smile


You asked “what issues have you seen between a S/A and F/A carrier on an AR15”. The model 614 is a factory select fire AR15. My response was obviously tongue in cheek.


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"AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald
 
Posts: 2078 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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JoshNC I had a good laugh just FYI. I think humor is getting lost here most of the time...and fritz how do you know FA is not being discussed here, there might be beer involved per Slippery Pete and we can have a change in direction Smile.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 8850 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Re: carbine gas system there is absolutely nothing wrong with it in a 5.56 mm rifle. Dwell time is really only an issue with barrels that have a short distance from gas port to muzzle, ie 10.5”, 12.5” mid, and 14.5” mid. Hence why 10.5, 12.5 mid, and 14.5 mid have a narrow range in port size that functions reliably. The big issues with the m4 related to shooting suppressed, gas port erosion causing over gassing (high ROF, increased wear/tear, etc) and 10.3/10.5 inch guns.

The 14.5” COLT M4a1 “SOCOM” heavy barrel is carbine gas and imo is about perfect. Once I step up to 16”, I lean toward a mid length gas, but even then it’s really not necessary.


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"AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald
 
Posts: 2078 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
So the LMT is supposed to run a little hot, and doesn't have adjustable gas block. I assume LMT makes things the way they are for a reason, and has done plenty of R&D to make sure it's uber reliable. I want to say the F/A bolt shrouded the firing pin or something like that too, not just slow it down due to weight. But I don't know, and I'm sure it's not a big deal on the LMT.

If I pick up a spare I might go that route.


Total non-issue unless you’re shooting suppressed. Use a low back pressure can and it’s not a problem. Surefire SOCOM RC, KAC QDC, DeadAir Sandman K, Ballistic Research and Machine...

I wouldn’t monkey with aftermarket carriers and buffers in LMT, KAC, or LaRue factory rifles.


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"AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald
 
Posts: 2078 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I can't tell you squat about short AR10 .308's as I don't find them useful in general other than the SCAR. Which the scar I have tested out the kazoo. On a SCAR17 if you want to make some gas jet adjustments to match what you are trying to do its easy as the system supports that. No idea what one does on LMT.
The whole 5.56 gas port location is a pile of dodo in all but the oddest of cases at least with respect to factory short barrel rifles.


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 8850 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Got an LMT.

My plan to get it done by July barely made it. I ran into problems based on limited availability and wasn't an easy amount of money for me to come up with. In fact it was quite challenging and I'm down my FAL. The wait from V1 Tactical pushed into next year, maybe summer next year by the time I was ready to make a move. I considered parting one together which would net me exactly the configuration I was looking for but that would have taken me north of $3K. Even closer to $3300 depending on different factors so I scrapped that and resigned to just hawking around to find one for sale. I still hadn't written off the right deal for a Noveske or Larue but was doing my best to be patient. Hell there was a GAP 10 G2 I had talked myself into at one point cause it was being given away practically but slept on it which I'm glad I did.

So I got a great deal on one that popped up and was "new" but used. It's not been fired. The guy threw a Ambi Radian Raptor on it which saved me the trouble and this one has the full weight Stainless 16 inch barrel. I eventually will get or trade for the LW 16 and who knows what else. But if this barrel performs I don't mind the weight.

Anyway I'll shoot it ASAP but that might take some time also. The current situation in this country sucks for shooting, at least for me.

I'll try to keep my opinions limited to truth and facts vs me being fired up about it.

1) 9.2 lbs on my scale. However the LW barrel is about half a lb lighter so that would land me not too far over the SCAR. I don't feel like it's overly heavy at 9.2 mostly because I'm used to my 10lb M14. (naked)

2) I'm really taken back by the quality level overall. The machining and finish and every other detail. Even the Ergo grip, I like it. It really seems like LMT has perfected every single aspect. Being a lefty having the full ambi options is huge. The push pins are kinda tough, no play in the receivers, and as I've read elsewhere in order to get the forward pin out the rifle has to be fully opened, and then it easily is pushed out. Reverse to put back together.

3. Trigger is outstanding. I previously (circa 2007) had a LMT 2 stage 556 trigger and it wasn't as good as this. This is as good as other Geisseles or the Larue MBT. I wasn't expecting that. That's just my opinion though and I'm not overly picky on triggers.

4. The one thing I can nitpick is the rear push pin has an elevated "fence" and the safety butts right up against it. So it somewhat interferes with my thumb going from safe to fire. Not a big deal, just something.

5. As a lefty I'm wishing the sling mount at the beginning of the handguard was on my side, but I'll make do.

6. I have always liked the Sopmod, the Rec Ext is super nice with that coating that makes it slick. The BCG is a work of art.

So for now I put my SS 1-6 on it. Makes a nice little package, but I'll need more mag to determine what it's capable of. I can see how the new Vortex 1-10 would be a good fit here, or some of the 1-8 jobs. And for no real good reason I like the Leupold Mark 6 3-18 or whatever it is, because it's compact. But it will be sometime before I get to that.







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Posts: 6137 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Congratulations and good luck with your new stick! I know it will shoot great for you. Great looking quality rifle!

Henryrifle
 
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