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Originally posted by hrcjon:
I get confused sometimes due to my age. But I think the OP says he doesn't want to build one, but buy one. So how does one get to buy a black rain ordnance factory gun with a kreiger barrel? or any of the other parts Fritz uses? or does buy one mean that you give a bunch of parts to your favorite gunsmith and he builds it for you ? there are a zillion more options if you don't want a factory gun?


Correct. Factory built AR10 in 308. There are tons of options to build. Tons. And for precision it's hard to beat this route.


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Posts: 6115 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by JoshNC:
I have owned a Larue OBR, LMT MWS, and KAC SR25 APC. All three are excellent in the accuracy department when shooting BH 175gr OTM or FGMM. A couple friends have SCAR17s, and one has a SCAR20. The only other 308 gas gun I would consider is a DD5.

Of these I prefer the KAC and LMT. The LMT is the best value and most flexible in having the ability to swap barrels to different calibers.

If I was starting from scratch right now, I would buy a LMT MWS MARS-H with 16” chrome lined lightweight barrel (have shot two different rifles, all sub-moa 5 shot groups at 100), add a 6.5cm barrel in the future. The only caveat is that the MWS must have a low back pressure can in order to function reliably. Surefire has been excellent in this regard on the MWS in my experience. The MWS with LW barrel is excellent. The LW barrel is a game changer and still accurate (it’s really a medium weight, more similar to the KAC APC) and if you’re really wanting more accuracy than a CL barrel, they also offer a SS LW barrel.

KAC is awesome. It’s the Rolex. At Rolex pricing.

My OBR was a laser beam and the gas valve is very well designed. I hated the 20 moa top rail, but that’s not an issue on the PredatOBR. The larue big frames lack the bolt upgrades of KAC, LMT, and DD. But I never noticed any issues with mine.

SCAR 17s are very accurate for having such a light barrel. The 20s is very accurate. But spare parts are costly when they are even in stock.

The DD5 I have only a little experience with. A friend had one and it was very nice, soft shooting, and accurate. I despise DDs furniture, but that’s easily changed.


Any given day I can be pushed into the LMT side. Whole lotta solid options happening from LMT. And if the lighter barrels shoot hell that might be it then. The newer ones are up near the 3K range so more equal with the Noveske. KAC is a pipe dream for me short of winning a serious poker game or breaking my ten commandments and busting out a credit card. Cool


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Posts: 6115 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
I get confused sometimes due to my age. But I think the OP says he doesn't want to build one, but buy one. So how does one get to buy a black rain ordnance factory gun with a kreiger barrel? or any of the other parts Fritz uses? or does buy one mean that you give a bunch of parts to your favorite gunsmith and he builds it for you ? there are a zillion more options if you don't want a factory gun?

All rifles are built in a similar concept -- somebody orders parts, then somebody assembles them.

Sure, maybe there's brand recognition from something like "RS Precision Rifles". The so-called Robert Smith as CEO may employ hundreds of employees, building a variety of firearms. Very likely, RS Precision Rifles doesn't manufacture all the parts that go into its rifles. Therefore, the company's purchasing team buys parts at the required specs. Then a gunsmith (or gunsmithing team) assembles all the components. And then likely they place an "RS Precision Rifles" logo somewhere on the rifle -- possibly the barrel or receiver.

I served as the purchasing agent for my AR10 rifles, buying the parts according to design specs and best prices. Then as supply guy, I took the parts to my talented local gunsmith (maybe "Bob Smith"). Bob then assembled the components into a completed rifle. Bob may -- or may not -- have a logo to etch into the barrel.

I have a GA Precision Crusader bolt action in 6.5CM. McMillan stock, Defiance action, Bartlein barrel, tuned old-style Remington trigger. Not a single part is made by GAP, but it's considered a GAP rifle. Or maybe was. Now on its third barrel, and sporting an ARCA Swiss rail instead of the original sling stud on the stock. Is it GAP rifle now? The receiver has a GAP serial number, but it's still a Defiance action. My local gunsmith ("Bob Smith") installed barrels #2 and #3. The "GAP" rifle now shoots better than it did straight from GAP. Yesterday while testing various lots of Hornady ammo for muzzle velocity, the rifle put 10 rounds into an oval-shaped group of 2.5" high by 3.5" wide on steel at 700 yards.

Do I have a GAP rifle? Or do a have a rifle with various quality components assembled by "Bob Smith"? It doesn't matter to me. I will wear out parts. I want quality replacement parts -- and I want a gunsmith who knows how to replace parts as they wear out.
 
Posts: 6577 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Slippery Pete:

Any given day I can be pushed into the LMT side. Whole lotta solid options happening from LMT. And if the lighter barrels shoot hell that might be it then. The newer ones are up near the 3K range so more equal with the Noveske. KAC is a pipe dream for me short of winning a serious poker game or breaking my ten commandments and busting out a credit card. Cool



MWS MLOK is the ticket. The easy barrel/caliber change gives it a huge edge. It’s mil issue for the Brits and has been well vetted in conflict, also in service with the Kiwis and now Croatia. Spare barrels, bolt groups, parts are available and reasonably priced. If using a suppressor is not in your future, the MWS is a no brainer. Even if you wish to shoot suppressed, a low back pressure can will run great on the MWS. I love the SR25 CC and PC. But they are very costly and I personally feel the MWS mlok with LW CL barrel is every bit the equal to the SR25 PC and a barrel profiling by Marvin Pitts to mimic the CC barrel profile would bring it pretty close to the CC weight. The gas system of the CC/PC is just a bit better than the MWS, but practically speaking idk that it’s worth the large price difference.


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"AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald
 
Posts: 2074 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I really like the barrel swap option. A lot. 13.5 with the pinned hider, a 6.5 or 260 option, and multiple lengths and weights of 308. I like LMT a lot, and I like that I can also buy it in parts or just get the spare parts too. As a lefty I wanted the full Ambi lower which MARS would take care of. And I've seen even from the first ones released they seem to shoot really well even with the CL barrels. I like the dual ejector bolt, and the enhanced BCG is available in 308 as well. They seem to share a lot with KAC and the tech seems to be the same or equal.

My only gripe with the early ones was weight and full length quad rails. Seems like these things have been remedied.

I really like the Noveske but dam if I can't hardly find any info out there. Very little 1st hand accounts. The LMT would save me some money too.


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Posts: 6115 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
I really like the barrel swap option. A lot. 13.5 with the pinned hider, a 6.5 or 260 option, and multiple lengths and weights of 308. I like LMT a lot, and I like that I can also buy it in parts or just get the spare parts too. As a lefty I wanted the full Ambi lower which MARS would take care of. And I've seen even from the first ones released they seem to shoot really well even with the CL barrels. I like the dual ejector bolt, and the enhanced BCG is available in 308 as well. They seem to share a lot with KAC and the tech seems to be the same or equal.

My only gripe with the early ones was weight and full length quad rails. Seems like these things have been remedied.

I really like the Noveske but dam if I can't hardly find any info out there. Very little 1st hand accounts. The LMT would save me some money too.


The LW barrels cured the weight issue for the MWS. Prior to the LW barrel, I wrote off the MWS. And the LW barrel is only light in the sense that it’s lighter than the original MWS barrel, which is a total pig. It’s more of a medium weight. A 13.5” contoured to something lighter in diameter would be a phenomenal 762 carbine.


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"AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald
 
Posts: 2074 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by JoshNC:
quote:
Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
I really like the barrel swap option. A lot. 13.5 with the pinned hider, a 6.5 or 260 option, and multiple lengths and weights of 308. I like LMT a lot, and I like that I can also buy it in parts or just get the spare parts too. As a lefty I wanted the full Ambi lower which MARS would take care of. And I've seen even from the first ones released they seem to shoot really well even with the CL barrels. I like the dual ejector bolt, and the enhanced BCG is available in 308 as well. They seem to share a lot with KAC and the tech seems to be the same or equal.

My only gripe with the early ones was weight and full length quad rails. Seems like these things have been remedied.

I really like the Noveske but dam if I can't hardly find any info out there. Very little 1st hand accounts. The LMT would save me some money too.


The LW barrels cured the weight issue for the MWS. Prior to the LW barrel, I wrote off the MWS. And the LW barrel is only light in the sense that it’s lighter than the original MWS barrel, which is a total pig. It’s more of a medium weight. A 13.5” contoured to something lighter in diameter would be a phenomenal 762 carbine.


That's what I'm seeing too. These new LW barrels look to be very high quality, even the CL versions accurate enough for what I'm after. I am totally fine with a decent med weight type setup if it shoots like I want a 9lb rifle to shoot, and from what I'm seeing they do. 0 complaints from me at that point, not that reprofile wouldn't be excellent but not something I'd be losing sleep over. Also that MLOK upper is supposed to be a little lighter too.

This would save me enough that I could likely jump on this soon. Especially the 13.5 with the pinned hider. It's the cheapest way into the rifle and I can grab a 16 inch barrel next to get setup proper. Toss my Aimpoint on the 13.5 setup and get rockin until I have more put away for barrel, scope, etc. That gets me shooting now instead of July and I'm pretty fired up about it.

I've wanted to get the 13 inch barrel for my SCAR 17 forever but didn't want NFA and just thought the 16 inch was better all around. Also the BE Meyers seems to be the only pin option and it will cost some serious dollars to get that extra barrel setup. LMT has em readily pinned from the factory and spare barrels in the 4-600 range. That's phenominal and I'll be able to get some time on a 13.5 308 to see if it's worth it on the SCAR.


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Posts: 6115 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The Sig 716i tread. What is this all about?1300???

Fully ambi lower
Dual ejector bolt/ mp
Barrel is stainless FNC coated
Trigger probably needs replaced.
8.5 lbs
I’m assuming the gas block is pinned
Video of a guy on a boat doing crab stuff Big Grin

Indian army contract apparently. I think the LMT as a system outshines it for sure. Buts it’s double the price.

Any experience on this rifle? TFB guy put 5 under an inch at 100 he claims. The rifle is setup how I would want it. I’m not super pumped with Sig for obvious reasons but they might have something here. Lifetime Warranty


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Posts: 6115 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
The Sig 716i tread. What is this all about?1300???
<snip>
I’m not super pumped with Sig for obvious reasons but they might have something here. Lifetime Warranty


If I remember correctly, Jennings & Raven offered lifetime warranty too ...

Of course I’m being a smart ass with that comment, but the point I want to make is don’t base a purchase on the warranty(especially SiG) ... I’ve got a gen1 SiG 716 DMR, it came exactly the way I wanted it but as I understand it, the barrel & handguard are propriety so it’s a good thing I like it. It would be nice to have their Gen2 handguard but even that’s not possible.


If you really want something you'll find a way ...
... if you don't you'll find an excuse.

I'm really not a "kid" anymore ... but I haven't grown up yet either Wink
 
Posts: 5266 | Registered: January 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I hear ya. Sig has made it very tough on us. But I’m not sure I could sleep at night without going higher end on this AR10. I don’t want any compromise in the end but man that price is something else. $1300 is crazy.


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Posts: 6115 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
I hear ya. Sig has made it very tough on us. But I’m not sure I could sleep at night without going higher end on this AR10. I don’t want any compromise in the end but man that price is something else. $1300 is crazy.

Well, you could buy the SiG and scratch the itch ... you may be presently surprised or you may decide to never buy another SiG product.
Either way you win!
By the way, $1300 is about what I had in my DPMS Gen1 308 Panther, it was the model with the stainless fluted bull barrel and I added a RRA 2-stage 3.5 pound varmint trigger. Then after shooting a couple thousand rounds trying (unsuccessfully) to find a sub moa load, I got $1200 out of it walking it around at a gunshow.

Even though I didn't find a satisfactory load, it still gave me hours of sorta~enjoyment at the range. Any day at the range is a good day ... as long as it doesn't involve a gun blowing up!

Besides, any thing you buy could be that one bad one reguardless of item or price ... spending more on a known quality brand lessens that the chance of that happening, but we all know ... once in a while something can slip through the cracks.

Likewise, you could also get the one where everything just clicks and you get a perfect one.


If you really want something you'll find a way ...
... if you don't you'll find an excuse.

I'm really not a "kid" anymore ... but I haven't grown up yet either Wink
 
Posts: 5266 | Registered: January 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
The Sig 716i tread. What is this all about?1300???

Fully ambi lower
Dual ejector bolt/ mp
Barrel is stainless FNC coated
Trigger probably needs replaced.
8.5 lbs
I’m assuming the gas block is pinned
Video of a guy on a boat doing crab stuff Big Grin

Indian army contract apparently. I think the LMT as a system outshines it for sure. Buts it’s double the price.

Any experience on this rifle? TFB guy put 5 under an inch at 100 he claims. The rifle is setup how I would want it. I’m not super pumped with Sig for obvious reasons but they might have something here. Lifetime Warranty


Indian Army contract was probably won because so many of Exeter’s parts are made in India. It’s an indigenous rifle.

Pete, deciding between the LMT to the Exeter 716i tread is like deciding between a Porsche and a Kia. Well, that’s not fair to Kia, because Kias actually run without issues, beta testing of customers, and sloppy ass QC/QA.


---------------------------------------------
"AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald
 
Posts: 2074 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by JoshNC:Indian Army contract was probably won because so many of Exeter’s parts are made in India. It’s an indigenous rifle.

Pete, deciding between the LMT to the Exeter 716i tread is like deciding between a Porsche and a Kia. Well, that’s not fair to Kia, because Kias actually run without issues, beta testing of customers, and sloppy ass QC/QA.

Wow!
No thanks to me but you may have Saved Pete $1,300+
Thanks for the insight Josh!


If you really want something you'll find a way ...
... if you don't you'll find an excuse.

I'm really not a "kid" anymore ... but I haven't grown up yet either Wink
 
Posts: 5266 | Registered: January 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Big Grin

Not genna lie I had a feeling that's the feedback I'd be getting on the Sig. And since I can probably beat up the whole Indian army myself with 1 hand tells you how much their new rifle means. Big Grin Big Grin Big Grin

Boy oh boy. Well I'm still inching closer to the LMT. After talking to the distributor it looks like July would be the time frame which is perfect for my budget too.

So they ship with a S/A carrier. I'm sure it's fine but they do offer F/A carrier. All things equal I'd rather have the F/A. Does this warrant the same considerations as a 5.56 AR?


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Posts: 6115 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
So they ship with a S/A carrier. I'm sure it's fine but they do offer F/A carrier. All things equal I'd rather have the F/A. Does this warrant the same considerations as a 5.56 AR?

What issues have you seen between a S/A and F/A carrier on an AR15? I have both types on my various AR15s.

I haven't worn out either type of carrier.
I see no differences in accuracy.
I see no differences in functional reliability.
I don't care if my ARs are a little over gassed.

With the exception of 3-gun competitors who are trying to tune their cycling/recoil characteristics to the ragged edge of lowest possible recoil, the S/A vs. F/A carrier debate deserves the same respect as the "AR15 component chart" which was rabidly considered the Holy Grail at arfcom.
 
Posts: 6577 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by fritz:
What issues have you seen between a S/A and F/A carrier on an AR15? I have both types on my various AR15s.


Failure to trip the auto sear on my model 614. Smile


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"AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald
 
Posts: 2074 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by JoshNC:
quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
What issues have you seen between a S/A and F/A carrier on an AR15? I have both types on my various AR15s.

Failure to trip the auto sear on my model 614. Smile

The OP is not discussing F/A rifles. Smile
 
Posts: 6577 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
quote:
Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
So they ship with a S/A carrier. I'm sure it's fine but they do offer F/A carrier. All things equal I'd rather have the F/A. Does this warrant the same considerations as a 5.56 AR?

What issues have you seen between a S/A and F/A carrier on an AR15? I have both types on my various AR15s.

I haven't worn out either type of carrier.
I see no differences in accuracy.
I see no differences in functional reliability.
I don't care if my ARs are a little over gassed.

With the exception of 3-gun competitors who are trying to tune their cycling/recoil characteristics to the ragged edge of lowest possible recoil, the S/A vs. F/A carrier debate deserves the same respect as the "AR15 component chart" which was rabidly considered the Holy Grail at arfcom.


I've had both kinds and never worn either out, in 5.56.

Generally given the choice F/A is preferred in 5.56. I am not sure of that with regard to the 308.


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Posts: 6115 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
quote:
Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
So they ship with a S/A carrier. I'm sure it's fine but they do offer F/A carrier. All things equal I'd rather have the F/A. Does this warrant the same considerations as a 5.56 AR?

What issues have you seen between a S/A and F/A carrier on an AR15? I have both types on my various AR15s.

I haven't worn out either type of carrier.
I see no differences in accuracy.
I see no differences in functional reliability.
I don't care if my ARs are a little over gassed.

With the exception of 3-gun competitors who are trying to tune their cycling/recoil characteristics to the ragged edge of lowest possible recoil, the S/A vs. F/A carrier debate deserves the same respect as the "AR15 component chart" which was rabidly considered the Holy Grail at arfcom.


I've had both kinds and never worn either out, in 5.56.

Generally given the choice F/A is preferred in 5.56. I am not sure of that with regard to the 308.

I'm with you Pete, given the choice I always go with full auto ... Ya just never know when that DIAS could pop up from that a long lost uncle gives you in his will! (I don't think the AR15 DIAS would fit a 10 style rifle ... but why take chances ... he could leave you both!!!


If you really want something you'll find a way ...
... if you don't you'll find an excuse.

I'm really not a "kid" anymore ... but I haven't grown up yet either Wink
 
Posts: 5266 | Registered: January 11, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
Generally given the choice F/A is preferred in 5.56. I am not sure of that with regard to the 308.

Only if you wish to shoot F/A sometime. I have shot enough full auto ARs to realize that I have no use for them. I don't find F/As accurate enough for my tastes and I no longer get exited about rapid mag dumps.

IMO for a S/A rifle, the type of carrier makes no functional difference. I just don't care what type of carrier is used -- both F/A and S/A carriers work equally well in my rifles.
 
Posts: 6577 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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