SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  Mason's Rifle Room    Deciding on an AR10
Page 1 2 3 4 5 
Go
New
Find
Notify
Tools
Reply
  
Deciding on an AR10 Login/Join 
Member
Picture of ksss
posted Hide Post
Last Fall, Sig came out and did a shoot for us. The DMR was impressive, trigger wasn't that great and still everyone that shot it was shooting .75 MOA at least. A better trigger and more time on the gun and I think .5 would be realistic. Based on that we ordered one. Supposed to ship mid May.
 
Posts: 344 | Location: idaho | Registered: May 13, 2003Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of henryrifle
posted Hide Post
I read through most of the responses and skimmed the remaining so forgive me if this is a repeat. I own an LMT MWS 308 and a LaRue PredatOBR 7.62.

I have the CL 18” barrel for the LMT and the 20” Stainless barrel. I find the Stainless to be more accurate and consistent and with handholds at short range which, I define as being inside 400 yards, the rifle is capable of .5 MOA. Important to note that this is a sample size of 1 rifle… It shoots FGMM 168 and 175 grain factory ammo under 1 MOA as well. I am more of a bolt gun shooter at distances further than 500 yards and can’t really speak to the LMT’s accuracy at that range or beyond. If you shoot suppressed, the rifle will be terribly overgassed. You could change out the gas system for an adjustable one but unless you have specialized tooling at your house/shop, that won’t be easy. The gas system is proprietary. Perhaps newer versions have more options. The rifle shoots great and other than the gas system, I have nothing but high praise.

The PredatOBR seemed like the perfect .308 gas gun to me. I have both the 16” barrel and the 20” barrel. The gas system is adjustable and works extremely well both suppressed and not. I may be the only one who has had this problem but if you are a hand loader, beware. Both of my barrels have LaRue’s XTRAXN chamber. This means the chamber is lightly spiral fluted to aid in spent brass extraction. Before adding annealing to my brass prep routine, I was able to reload the brass once with either barrel and the second reload, regardless of the type of lube or brand/type or sizing die, would stick the case in the die. Annealing reduces this somewhat but not completely.

I realize these are only two of your choices but between the two, I found the LMT to be more accurate — again, small sample size. If I were only shooting factory ammo and desired to shoot suppressed, I’d pick the PredatOBR. If you are a hand loader, have little need to shoot suppressed and prioritize accuracy, I would recommend the LMT with the stainless steel barrel.

You have a great and fun choice in front of you.
Hope this helped a little,
Henryrifle
 
Posts: 489 | Location: Atlanta | Registered: November 11, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You have cow?
I lift cow!
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by ksss:
Last Fall, Sig came out and did a shoot for us. The DMR was impressive, trigger wasn't that great and still everyone that shot it was shooting .75 MOA at least. A better trigger and more time on the gun and I think .5 would be realistic. Based on that we ordered one. Supposed to ship mid May.


To echo your point, everything I've seen of the Sig gen 2 DMR it shoots really really well. I can talk myself into it any given day but the price and fact it's being discontinued force me in other directions. But I don't think it's not worth it. I don't like the look of the handguard but I'll get over that yesterday if it performs like I want.


------------------------------
http://defendersoffreedom.us/
 
Posts: 6063 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You have cow?
I lift cow!
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by henryrifle:
I read through most of the responses and skimmed the remaining so forgive me if this is a repeat. I own an LMT MWS 308 and a LaRue PredatOBR 7.62.

I have the CL 18” barrel for the LMT and the 20” Stainless barrel. I find the Stainless to be more accurate and consistent and with handholds at short range which, I define as being inside 400 yards, the rifle is capable of .5 MOA. Important to note that this is a sample size of 1 rifle… It shoots FGMM 168 and 175 grain factory ammo under 1 MOA as well. I am more of a bolt gun shooter at distances further than 500 yards and can’t really speak to the LMT’s accuracy at that range or beyond. If you shoot suppressed, the rifle will be terribly overgassed. You could change out the gas system for an adjustable one but unless you have specialized tooling at your house/shop, that won’t be easy. The gas system is proprietary. Perhaps newer versions have more options. The rifle shoots great and other than the gas system, I have nothing but high praise.

The PredatOBR seemed like the perfect .308 gas gun to me. I have both the 16” barrel and the 20” barrel. The gas system is adjustable and works extremely well both suppressed and not. I may be the only one who has had this problem but if you are a hand loader, beware. Both of my barrels have LaRue’s XTRAXN chamber. This means the chamber is lightly spiral fluted to aid in spent brass extraction. Before adding annealing to my brass prep routine, I was able to reload the brass once with either barrel and the second reload, regardless of the type of lube or brand/type or sizing die, would stick the case in the die. Annealing reduces this somewhat but not completely.

I realize these are only two of your choices but between the two, I found the LMT to be more accurate — again, small sample size. If I were only shooting factory ammo and desired to shoot suppressed, I’d pick the PredatOBR. If you are a hand loader, have little need to shoot suppressed and prioritize accuracy, I would recommend the LMT with the stainless steel barrel.

You have a great and fun choice in front of you.
Hope this helped a little,
Henryrifle


Really appreciate the feedback sir. These may only be 2 on my list but they are 2 of the most serious contenders.

My experience on the OBR before 2010 pretty much sold me on it. I'm just not sure the PredatOBR is in the same league. Lotta conflicting information. I don't care about an adjustable gasblock because I'm trying to maximize the reliability, and don't have a 308 can. Severely burnt out on NFA nonsense. The Noveske kinda puts me at ease because the Switchblock has a track record. I'd probably never touch it, same as my Sig and SCAR. Currently don't reload either but I've got a stockpile of brass for "someday." (That might be never, especially for 308.)

I've read the LMT is over gassed suppressed. I like this personally. I won't use it suppressed. I like reliability and with the AR10 something like this rifle puts my mind at ease. I trust LMT. I also love the barrel change options. If the lightweight stainless barrels shoot like you're saying the other ones do this is probably the move. The single and only issue I ever had with it was how heavy it was back in the stone age when I first picked one up. I can get over that in a hurry if the performance is there.

Great and fun choice huh? I'm not so sure of that. I've done unspeakable things to even get to this position, and son of a bitch this decision is downright daunting. One day this, next day that. And none of them are reasonably priced, save the RR maybe. But I'm privileged to be in this position, and it's really not that serious. I tell the old lady I think the Noveske is leading the pack and she looks at me like I have 3 eyes. "How much is that?"

Thanks again for the first hand feedback. Happy Easter to you and yours.


------------------------------
http://defendersoffreedom.us/
 
Posts: 6063 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of TRshootem
posted Hide Post
I have shot(not owned) most of the brands mentioned. I really like the POF builds, but only shot out to 300 yds. This post is timely as I have several RRA guns and components that have been stellar. Their new .308 looks very interesting, I'm following this all before I settle on the one for me. I'm leaning toward a quality barrel maker, build the rest to suit me. A 6.5 CM is also very tempting after shooting a friends 20" SS rifle....hot damn fine shooter.
 
Posts: 1271 | Location: Montana | Registered: October 20, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Black Rain + Krieger in 6.5CM



Black Rain + Bartlein in 6CM


Regardless of brand, it will take a really good rifle to hang with these two. The barrel and its chamber are the primary driving factors of accuracy. You stated in your first post that wanted an accurate AR10. Determine which AR10 manufacturers/assemblers use barrels in the league of Krieger and Bartlein.
 
Posts: 6521 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You have cow?
I lift cow!
posted Hide Post
If memory serves Rock River barres are made by Wilson. I want to get a phone call into them to ask some questions about that new one.

Noveske Stainless barrels I forgot but I'm trusting the brand.

LMT makes their own I think.

Larue also, but used to have Lothar-Walther. Those are good.

Out of curiosity Fritz what are those builds running you?


------------------------------
http://defendersoffreedom.us/
 
Posts: 6063 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You have cow?
I lift cow!
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by TRshootem:
I have shot(not owned) most of the brands mentioned. I really like the POF builds, but only shot out to 300 yds. This post is timely as I have several RRA guns and components that have been stellar. Their new .308 looks very interesting, I'm following this all before I settle on the one for me. I'm leaning toward a quality barrel maker, build the rest to suit me. A 6.5 CM is also very tempting after shooting a friends 20" SS rifle....hot damn fine shooter.


Yep same experience for me. Rock River ATH performs better than they say it will. It's amazing.

I like the idea of building a 6.5 gas gun to be long range.


------------------------------
http://defendersoffreedom.us/
 
Posts: 6063 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
Picture of samnev
posted Hide Post
I have an LMT MWS 16" an OBR and a Predat OBR. My most accurate of the 3 is the OBR with the Lothar-Walter barrel.
 
Posts: 1793 | Location: Arizona | Registered: June 20, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You have cow?
I lift cow!
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by samnev:
I have an LMT MWS 16" an OBR and a Predat OBR. My most accurate of the 3 is the OBR with the Lothar-Walter barrel.


What barrel is on your LMT?


------------------------------
http://defendersoffreedom.us/
 
Posts: 6063 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
IF I get a check from .gov for the virus stuff it will be used as a downpayment on a GAP-10.

I've been wanting one since they were released a number of years ago


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live today as if it may be your last and learn today as if you will live forever
 
Posts: 5247 | Location: New Orleans...outside the levees, fishing in the Rigolets | Registered: October 11, 2009Reply With QuoteReport This Post
LIBERTATEM DEFENDIMUS
Picture of Belgian Blue
posted Hide Post
In my opinion, I think it comes down to the following considerations:

Gilt edge accuracy - Always Consider 6.5 Creedmore over .308.
Custom Build using specialized components OR Turn Key options like GAP-10G2 & JP Enterprise.

Factory Military Equivalent Options - If available, consider 6.5 Creedmore otherwise .308
SCAR 20/17, KAC SR-25, LMT, HK-MR762A1 (though 16" barrel may be limiting at extended ranges)

Bargain Options -
S&W M&P Performance Center (great reviews from users) Good gun for the money. Available in 6.5 Creedomore.
 
Posts: 5180 | Registered: October 18, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
Out of curiosity Fritz what are those builds running you?

I picked up the parts over the course of 3 or 4 years, and didn't keep a list of costs. Component prices have increased noticeably for some items. The major parts:

Black Rain Ordnance:
- Norguard finish for upper receiver, lower receiver, charging handle, BCG
- anodized rail and ejection port cover

Wilson Combat trigger

Magpul PRS stock

Krieger or Bartlein/Craddock barrel

With little effort you can find these parts for about $2600. With some searching the price drops by $200-300, maybe more.
 
Posts: 6521 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You have cow?
I lift cow!
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Belgian Blue:
In my opinion, I think it comes down to the following considerations:

Gilt edge accuracy - Always Consider 6.5 Creedmore over .308.
Custom Build using specialized components OR Turn Key options like GAP-10G2 & JP Enterprise.

Factory Military Equivalent Options - If available, consider 6.5 Creedmore otherwise .308
SCAR 20/17, KAC SR-25, LMT, HK-MR762A1 (though 16" barrel may be limiting at extended ranges)

Bargain Options -
S&W M&P Performance Center (great reviews from users) Good gun for the money. Available in 6.5 Creedomore.


Agreed. And I'm limiting this to the 308 factory options, leaning towards precise. I still have a hard time getting past the Noveske. It seems to be the best of everything which will also deliver the kind of accuracy I want. However it's not an easy conclusion to reach especially with Laue and LMT out there. HK as well but the proprietary mags anger me. Knights is just too far north on the price tag. Used 4K is about as good as it gets. Already checked the SCAR box or I'd be after that. SBRing the SCAR keeps me up at night though. Would love that but hate NFA nonsense.


------------------------------
http://defendersoffreedom.us/
 
Posts: 6063 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You have cow?
I lift cow!
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
quote:
Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
Out of curiosity Fritz what are those builds running you?

I picked up the parts over the course of 3 or 4 years, and didn't keep a list of costs. Component prices have increased noticeably for some items. The major parts:

Black Rain Ordnance:
- Norguard finish for upper receiver, lower receiver, charging handle, BCG
- anodized rail and ejection port cover

Wilson Combat trigger

Magpul PRS stock

Krieger or Bartlein/Craddock barrel

With little effort you can find these parts for about $2600. With some searching the price drops by $200-300, maybe more.


Norguard finish I gotta check that out. It looks nice. Slick.

So that's about what I figured it would be. In the future when I enter the 6.5 or 260 world I aim to go down this road. Bartlein spoiled me in the past and I'll probably have to go that route again.

I want this rifle to shoot the same 168 FGMM as all the others, wrapping up my 308 stuff. (until the FAL variant addiction kicks in again dammit.)


------------------------------
http://defendersoffreedom.us/
 
Posts: 6063 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
Is there going to be a rifle purchased in some fashion after all this?


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 8671 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I have owned a Larue OBR, LMT MWS, and KAC SR25 APC. All three are excellent in the accuracy department when shooting BH 175gr OTM or FGMM. A couple friends have SCAR17s, and one has a SCAR20. The only other 308 gas gun I would consider is a DD5.

Of these I prefer the KAC and LMT. The LMT is the best value and most flexible in having the ability to swap barrels to different calibers.

If I was starting from scratch right now, I would buy a LMT MWS MARS-H with 16” chrome lined lightweight barrel (have shot two different rifles, all sub-moa 5 shot groups at 100), add a 6.5cm barrel in the future. The only caveat is that the MWS must have a low back pressure can in order to function reliably. Surefire has been excellent in this regard on the MWS in my experience. The MWS with LW barrel is excellent. The LW barrel is a game changer and still accurate (it’s really a medium weight, more similar to the KAC APC) and if you’re really wanting more accuracy than a CL barrel, they also offer a SS LW barrel.

KAC is awesome. It’s the Rolex. At Rolex pricing.

My OBR was a laser beam and the gas valve is very well designed. I hated the 20 moa top rail, but that’s not an issue on the PredatOBR. The larue big frames lack the bolt upgrades of KAC, LMT, and DD. But I never noticed any issues with mine.

SCAR 17s are very accurate for having such a light barrel. The 20s is very accurate. But spare parts are costly when they are even in stock.

The DD5 I have only a little experience with. A friend had one and it was very nice, soft shooting, and accurate. I despise DDs furniture, but that’s easily changed.


---------------------------------------------
"AND YEA THOUGH THE HINDUS SPEAK OF KARMA, I IMPLORE YOU...GIVE HER A BREAK, LORD". - Clark W. Griswald
 
Posts: 2066 | Location: The South | Registered: September 12, 2005Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Slippery Pete:
Norguard finish I gotta check that out. It looks nice. Slick.

In the future when I enter the 6.5 or 260 world I aim to go down this road. Bartlein spoiled me in the past and I'll probably have to go that route again.

I want this rifle to shoot the same 168 FGMM as all the others, wrapping up my 308 stuff.

Norguard is electroless nickel. It seems similar to the NiB coating of some of my AR bolts and BCGs. A person who understands metals and coatings can give a comparison.

Bartlein and Krieger make great AR10 barrels in 308. Regardless of caliber, the best barrels produce the best accuracy. I have a bolt action with a 308 Bartlein barrel. It shoots FGMM 168, FGMM 175, and Hornady 168 factory ammo with stellar accuracy. A 308 won't have the practical accuracy of a 6.5mm bore at distance, due to the lower muzzle velocities and lower ballistic coefficients of the 308's bullets.

At my altitude, FGMM 308 flies well to longer distances. If you're shooting at sea level, the inherent instability of the SMK 168 bullet at trans-sonic speeds limits its long-distance potential. But at shorter distances, and with the right barrel, it's an accurate bullet in reasonable winds.
 
Posts: 6521 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Member
posted Hide Post
I get confused sometimes due to my age. But I think the OP says he doesn't want to build one, but buy one. So how does one get to buy a black rain ordnance factory gun with a kreiger barrel? or any of the other parts Fritz uses? or does buy one mean that you give a bunch of parts to your favorite gunsmith and he builds it for you ? there are a zillion more options if you don't want a factory gun?


“So in war, the way is to avoid what is strong, and strike at what is weak.”
 
Posts: 8671 | Registered: October 14, 2004Reply With QuoteReport This Post
You have cow?
I lift cow!
posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by hrcjon:
Is there going to be a rifle purchased in some fashion after all this?


All things considered I'm about halfway there if I have to drop 3K with the full wrap up by July for sure. At least with my best laid plans. Unless of course you want to step up and fill in the gap. Wink


------------------------------
http://defendersoffreedom.us/
 
Posts: 6063 | Location: Bay Area | Registered: December 09, 2007Reply With QuoteReport This Post
  Powered by Social Strata Page 1 2 3 4 5  
 

SIGforum.com    Main Page  Hop To Forum Categories  Mason's Rifle Room    Deciding on an AR10

© SIGforum 2020