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I hear you. Lots of disruptions and challenges exist now.

One downside of having our own modest ranch -- leased out for cattle grazing -- is that it requires constant work. Fortunately, the stay-at-home edict has an agriculture exemption. Therefore, after the normal work duties are done, I generally can send lead down range.
 
Posts: 6574 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Been shooting Bighorn actions on AICS chassis for a long time. Good friend built two rifles on Kelbly Black Bear long actions over a year ago. Shot his rifles several times. Impressed with the actions. Beast of a action and very smooth. Last fall traded one of my Bighorns for a Kelbly Black Bear. Sent the action back to Kelbly to have my trigger timed to the action. Jelrod1 chambered a Bartlien barrel for me in another 6BRA. While I'm making a change might as well go with a different chassis, XLR Envy. The Envy fits amazingly well to the flat bottom Kelbly. The Envy is better suited for the PMS stuff, integrated Arca rail to attach stuff on. Have 500rds on it, shoots extremely well. The new Kelbly action rivals the Bighorns with 20K rounds for smoothness. I can run it pretty quick. My experience with Kelbly's CS has been very good.

Picture taken last month, since changed the grip to a Magpul K2+ and added a rail mount level. The Envy has a built in level, prefer a rail mount can see it with my left eye while still looking through the scope. The knurling was a bit rough on the bolt knob, sanded it down.

Wish I had a match to shoot it at!

 
Posts: 2831 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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offgrid -- looking good. I suppose you could just dial up the elevation and try to see the impacts on snow in the surrounding peaks....

****
Ah, the "joys" of ranch land. A couple of the new calves escaped the north fence line -- so it needs some work. The frickin' windmill wouldn't pump water. Had to prime it three times before it started working. For awhile I was afraid the leathers were toast. Chopping yucca in the funky wind -- blowing in advance of tonight's forecasted snowstorm -- sucked. But eventually the day's chores were done.

Last year I received a batch of Hornady 6.5CM Hornady 140 ELD ammo that had MV that was about 120 fps lower than normal. It took a bit of wrangling with Hornady before they admitted that specific manufacturing lot was out of spec. I received some replacement ammo, but hadn't taken the time to test MV.

I'm pleased to state the replacement ammo from Hornady tested very close to my normal 2810 fps. Furthermore, a single lot of 1,000 rounds from Sgammo that arrived a couple of weeks ago also tests right around 2810 fps. Woohoo. Most of the other lots of ammo continue to test near their normal 2800-ish MV

The odd thing is that a lot from 2017 that had a MV of 2809 just tested at 2895 fps today. WTF?

I also have some boxes of the 2019 lot with slow ammo. Its MV increased from 2685 to 2765 fps. WTF?

I set a 18" x 24" plate at 700 yards to get a rough idea about accuracy. Between shifting winds, sore arms from morning chores, and head-up-backside -- it just wasn't my best day. I had a couple of 5-round groups with 4" and 4.5" vertical. The others had vertical variations of 5" to 6.5" -- always having 4 good impacts, then a sheep-dip pull high or low.

****
I also had a little time to practice positional shooting from a multi-tier wood barrier and a tank trap. I need more practice here....
 
Posts: 6574 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Interesting comments, fritz, about the velocity variations you’ve seen with Hornady ammunition. I have found it to generally be quite precise in my own limited use, but some time ago I became concerned about the velocities I was measuring in different cartridges and loads. In fact, there was such differences among various loads that I became convinced that my Oehler chronograph was at fault and not giving me accurate readings. That was part of the reason I decided to get a LabRadar unit (in addition to the latter’s convenience and other advantages).

After I started using the LR and comparing its readings with records of some Oehler measurements, though, I discovered that the results I got with both units for the same lots of ammunition like Federal 308 Winchester 175 grain Gold Medal Match were virtually identical. In addition, when testing different lots of Hornady 308 Win 155 grain A-MAX TAP, velocities within the lots were pretty consistent, but there were significant differences among them.

I have long read in histories of sniping about velocity variations in military ammunition, but I had fallen into the trap of assuming that a commercial manufacturer of “match” or “Tactical Application Police” ammo would do better. Such velocity variations usually don’t have much practical effect on my shooting at the distances and targets I normally use, but I do find it puzzling. And then seeing velocity increases in the same lots from one chronograph session to another is another mystery; could storage conditions make that much difference?




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 42101 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by sigfreund:

And then seeing velocity increases in the same lots from one chronograph session to another is another mystery; could storage conditions make that much difference?



Hand-load ammo that sat for a few months over the winter, chrono in the spring, no difference. What difference are you seeing?

A friend mostly shoots MK262 in his AR's, several thousand rounds. He reports as much as 100fps difference from lot to lot as well as a large accuracy difference. He's shot enough MK262 to know what lots to buy if come available.
 
Posts: 2831 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I gave the wrong impression with my comment about velocity differences within the same lot. I haven't noticed that myself, but was remarking about what I understood fritz to say.

I really should start paying more attention to the differences that can occur among various lots. As I mentioned, military snipers were long known for being fanatical about identifying what lots shot best in their weapons, and then hoarding as much of the same lot as they could.

Long ago I read a statement by Evan Marshall that ammunition companies (in his experience) don't try to load ammunition to specific velocities (despite what their boxes claim), but rather to standard pressures. One would think that consistent pressures would yield consistent velocities, but perhaps not always.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 42101 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:

Long ago I read a statement by Evan Marshall that ammunition companies (in his experience) don't try to load ammunition to specific velocities (despite what their boxes claim), but rather to standard pressures. One would think that consistent pressures would yield consistent velocities, but perhaps not always.


Ammunition company loading to standard pressure, we would call that "lawyer" pressures today!

Based on my experience from shooting out a pile of barrels. Pressure/velocity can be vastly different from barrel to barrel using the same powder lot/ primer/ bullet, reamer...... Slight difference in bore diameter is a certainly a factor.
 
Posts: 2831 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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When I was struggling with the one slow lot from Hornady, the Hornady tech stated that sometimes older manufacturing lots show slower muzzle velocities as the years go by. I replied that my oldest lots didn't show any real MV variation over the years. Furthermore, the slow lot was manufactured in the current year. I had a bit of runaround on barrel length versus MV, as their test barrel was either 23" or 24" long -- compared to my 26" barrel with a suppressor.

I analyzed the MV figures a bit more last night. Every lot that I tested in both July 2019 & April 2020 showed significant & consistent MV increases in April 2020. MV increases of 80-ish fps. I did not test all of my older lots -- I still have a few others that can be tested for comparisons. They include an older AMax 140 and a newer ELD 147 load, but trends count.

Offgrid and I discuss the MV increase issue. Possible reasons and actions:
- Carbon ring in the barrel. Quite possible, as these can increase chamber pressure. I will use my carbon killer solution -- letting it soak for awhile. Then really clean the barrel.

- The barrel is speeding up. Possible, but not very likely. This Bartlein has about 500 rounds on it now. I haven't shot it since July/August 2019, when it had 300-400 rounds. That's when I did the MV testing for Hornady. My prior Bartleins have exhibited stable MVs after roughly 200 rounds.

- Magnetospeed issues. I just looked at the battery. It's not at full strength, but the diagnostics seem to think it's OK. I will install a new 9v battery and test again. However, the Magnetspeed worked well on 223 ammo tests in March 2020. There were no missed readings, and MVs were consistent for various ammo types and the AR15 barrel used.

- Ambient temperature. Last July I measured MVs on days of 80 degrees F. This April's tests were at 60-65 degrees F. I never let the barrel get all that hot -- two groups of 5 rounds, with a couple minutes between the two groups. Furthermore, after every 10 rounds I walked to steel target plate to repaint. With a minimum 1400 yard round trip, the barrel and suppressor were cold at the start of each 10 round test. By my thinking, the April 2020 MVs should be a slightly lower, due to a little cooler temps.

So...more MV tests down the road. Once I have more MV data, I will remove the Magnetospeed bayonet, put the suppressor cover back on, and confirm elevation requires at distance -- for that air density altitude at the time. Honestly, I'd just like to hit the Staples Easy Button, and be done with this.
 
Posts: 6574 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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To hopefully eliminate a potential carbon ring, I soaked the chamber and throat in Slip 2000's Carbon Killer solution. I pushed a bunch of patches down the bore and removed a lot of carbon. I made quite a few passes with a bronze brush. I don't have a bore scope, but I'm pretty certain there is minimal carbon in the bore.

I tested the Magnetspeed V3 against previous MV readings I did on a 16" AR15 -- the numbers were close. I replaced the V3's 9v battery -- no change in readings. Temps this time were 55 F at the start, falling to 50 degrees at the end of the shooting session. Definitely cooler temps than the 80-ish degrees of last year's testing.

I tested MVs on 9 different manufactured lots of Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor ammo. Mainly 140 ELD, but also a 140 Amax load from 2014 and a 147 ELD from 2019. Every lot has higher MV now at 400-500 rounds down range than the MV last July at 200-300 rounds. Until now, I figured at 200 rounds a Bartlein/Krieger/Wilson barrel was up to maximum speed. Lots tested in July 2019 are now about 80 fps faster. Lots tested for the first time in early April 2020 are now 20-30 fps faster. I will try the Carbon Killer cleaner one more time just for grins, but I'm pretty certain my Bartlein sped up twice.

I contacted SF member Alpine in regards to a second round of MV increases. Alpine stated that it has occurred on a couple of his barrels. Huh. Live and learn.
 
Posts: 6574 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I started testing 6.5CM MV with an ammo lot from 2017. In July 2019 it had MV of 2809 fps, which was right at my dope cards. In early April 2020 it produced two tests of 2895 fps. This weekend it came in with MVs of 2860 and 2878. Interestingly, the first shot (cold clean bore, after removing all that carbon) showed an MV of 2800, then shots 2-5 were 2875-2886. The first shot was about 5" lower than the center of the group at 700 yards, which tells me shot #1 really did have a lower MV.

******
I didn't do overnight soaking of the AR15 barrel with Carbon Killer, but I did run a whole bunch of wet patches down the bore. Carbon Killer really does take a lot of carbon out of the bore -- much more than the cleaning I normally do, which is RemOil on patches. MVs for 20 rounds of FGMM 69 were a little slower than normal, but the groups at 450 yards were fairly normal (about 4") and the SD for the MVs were nice and low.

MVs for 10 rounds of Hornady 75 Black were pretty close to normal in the AR15. Groups are also around 4" at 450 yards. I don't know if it took 20 rounds of FGMM 69 to get the cleaned bore back to normal fouling levels. I should have tested MV for FGMM 69 after the Hornady 75, but I wanted to move on to testing the 6.5CM's MVs.
 
Posts: 6574 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Cleaning the 6.5CM bore with Carbon Killer may have improved the rifle's accuracy a little. I also feel my fundamentals were better this weekend, as compared to the prior weekend. Regardless, I need to experiment a little more with the effects of regular use of Carbon Killer. I've had the carbon ring appear in AR15 barrels previously, and it noticeably affects accuracy.

Only my first group of five rounds had unpleasant vertical variation at 700 yards. That's the group where the first round was about 80 fps slower than the remaining four rounds.The remaining 9 groups showed vertical variations of 2.5" to 5.25", with most in the 3.5" to 4.25" range.

The refrigerator trophy group of the day occurred with an ammo lot from 2016 that I used to win the Sporting Rifle Match in Raton, NM. Winds were relatively consistent 10-12 mph from my 7 o'clock. I held most shots at the left edge of the plate, at the height even with the left orange dot.

10 rounds -- 2.5" vertical and 3.5" horizontal -- 700 yards


Way too many times we see guns described as "1/2 MOA all day long". Sometimes with "when I do my part". Rarely accompanied by anything but words.
Let me just state that "this thar gun is pretty darn accurate"
 
Posts: 6574 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks for reporting all that, fritz. Definitely much to chew on.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 42101 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I mostly shoot Lapua Center-X in my 40X 22LR at matches. Center-X has been fairly consistent lot to lot, some better then others. Getting low on ammo. Good time to send my 40X to Lapua in Phoenix to have it lot tested. Talk to them today about the process. They test at 100 meters, barreled action clamp to a fixture in a underground tunnel. Within the next two weeks they're getting in several lots of Center-X. They'll notify me when it arrives. Send them my barreled action with trigger, 1 magazine and suppressor with paper work. I'll post the results.

https://www.capstonepg.com/rpc/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxqXqV67__4


Max distance of the 3 different 22 matches I shoot is 250yds. Dope for the 22 @ 250yds is the same as the dope for my 6mm @ 1240yds. Puts shooting a 22 @ 250yds in perspective! Fun stuff!
 
Posts: 2831 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Steyr SSG 69 PII

Old School here. Mostly run 7.62x51 NATO through it for economy, but it will put them solidly into a 20 inch plate at 700 yards. I am happy with that as I am not a match shooter. Atlas V8 is on the way to replace the stand in MagPul.


Chaos, panic and disorder. My work here is done........
 
Posts: 56 | Location: Left Coast POW | Registered: June 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by p220cop:
Steyr SSG 69 PII


Oooh: Talk about some nostalgia.

I had one with a single trigger (PI?) that I brought back from Germany in 1984, but I let it go after not achieving very good results with it—probably because I knew little to nothing about shooting precision centerfire rifles at the time. It’s one of those guns I wish I had back, if for no other reason to see if I could ever shoot it well.




“The fundamental cause of trouble in the world today is that the stupid are cocksure while the intelligent are full of doubt.”
— Bertrand Russell
 
Posts: 42101 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by offgrid:
Send them my barreled action with trigger, 1 magazine and suppressor with paper work. I'll post the results.

Interesting video on Lapua's testing. Seems straight forward, and just a bit tedious.

quote:
Originally posted by offgrid:
Max distance of the 3 different 22 matches I shoot is 250yds. Dope for the 22 @ 250yds is the same as the dope for my 6mm @ 1240yds. Puts shooting a 22 @ 250yds in perspective! Fun stuff!

Maybe similar dope for elevations, but I suspect your 6mm has an advantage on wind drift.
 
Posts: 6574 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by fritz:

Maybe similar dope for elevations, but I suspect your 6mm has an advantage on wind drift.


According my Kestrel the 22LR has .1 MIL less.

Occasionally I shoot with a buddy on his ranch. Do not have berms behind the targets. A miss at 250yds the bullet travels another 15yds or so past the target before impacting the ground. At that distance the bullet is out of gas, dropping fast and being pushed by the wind a lot in that 15yds. Took me a little bit to figure out with a L-R wind, miss the target on the left, bullet impact in the dirt to the right... Missing right, make a correction, still missing right, Doh!

I've chrono'd every 22LR ammo I've shot through my gun. In general cheaper ammo has very poor ES's, 50+ ES not uncommon. ES of 50 at 250yds can be as much as a 12" difference in drop from high to low velocity.
 
Posts: 2831 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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OK, so you made me look at my tables, using 8,000' DA.

My Kimber shows MV of 1,097 fps with Lapua Center X. At 250 yards I need 34.7 MOA of elevation and 8.9 MOA of full-value wind.

My 6.5 Creedmoor shows MV of 2,820 fps with Hornady 140 ELD. At 1,230 yards I need 34.6 MOA of elevation and 6.1 MOA of full-value wind. My 6.5CM has the advantage on wind drift at the given elevation requirements, but I thought the advantage was much greater.

I agree that MV variations from one round to the next in 22lr ammo make long distance shooting a real challenge.

*****
Just for grins I pulled 308 Win, using FGMM 175 at 2620 fps. At 1050 yards, 35.3 MOA elevation and 7.3 MOA of wind.

For my 20" AR15 with Hornady 73 ELD -- but I only have tables out to 1,000 yards. 31.3 MOA elevation and 8.3 MOA of wind.
 
Posts: 6574 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Yesterday I fire-formed 150rds for my 6BRA. Friend I shot with picked up a Shotmarker awhile back. Shot through it with the FF load a few times at 540yds, max distance of the range. Some interesting data!

https://www.autotrickler.com/shotmarker.html

My random'ish FF load 29/H4895/107SMK that are factory pointed. Didn't do anything to the new Lapua 6BR brass, didn't change the depth of seating die... load and shoot. Screwed on one of my tired 6BRA barrels with 3000rds to FF. This barrel still shoots OK, but it has slowed downed. No longer trust it to shoot a match. I chrono'd the FF load as I zero at 100yds, 5 shots 2830/SD 3 according to the Magneto. The shot 5 shots through the Shotmarker. Didn't watch the shots on the screen as I shot. The Shotmarker gives a velocity/SD. It was interesting to see the SD of 24 at 540yds with the same load. I also shot another 5 shot both through the MAgnetao and the Shotmarker, same result in SD's. My buddy who points his 105 Hybrids virtually the same SD at the muzzle and at the target. The difference between the two bullets, hand pointing maintains a more consistent BC. We calculated 107SMK's about +/- 5% in BC. Obvousily at 540yds can see by the target doesn't really matter, past 1000yds? My buddy has some 6mm Hornady A-Tips. Hornady makes claim about the consistent BC, will be interesting to see the numbers from them. He also has some Berger 109 Hybrids coming, Berger claim sub 1% variation in BC.

Some other data that I've known since chambering a 6BR over 5 yrs ago. Silly easy to tune, HUGE accuracy window. This random load in a tired barrel shoots OK.

Fun Stuff!

 
Posts: 2831 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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BR-based chamberings are pretty amazing. Now if Hornady, Prime, or someone else would just offer reasonably-priced factory 6BR ammo, my long-in-the-tooth 308 Win chambering will go the way of the dodo.

That target system is slick.
 
Posts: 6574 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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