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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
quote:
Originally posted by exx1976:
Some people will just never learn that the best bullets out there simply can't be purchased in factory loadings.

While it is true that Berger bullets (probably best out there) aren't part of factory ammo options, in some instances the Berger advantage is is pretty small. For example, take factory 6.5 Creedmoor, with 140 Amax.

At 1,000 yards in DA typical for eastern Colorado, I need 26.8 MOA elevation and 5.3 MOA wind (10 mph full value). Load a Berger 140 target hybrid (per Litz calculations in JBM) to the same MV and the elevation is 26.2 MOA and the wind 5.3 MOA. In the Colorado T3 steel match, the Berger advantage might come into play on one stage -- the one with 1100 to 1300 yard targets. For the other 9 stages, no real difference.

A carefully hand loaded Berger, tuned for a specific gun, will certainly be more accurate than Hornady factory loads. But it better be loaded by someone with some skilz. Even with my club-fisted trigger finger, my 6.5CM rifle lives up to its 3/8" accuracy guarantee. But I'm wrong -- it's not a 3/8" gun. Put real shooters behind it (like Jacob Bynum, Frank Galli, Tony Burke, Andrew Blugaugh) and I have seen it's a 3/16" gun with factory Hornady ammo.

Offgrid has so graciously noted that I don't miss targets in steel matches because of my ammo. It's because of the sheep-dip loose nut behind the butt.


Sadly the statement highlighted above is no longer one that you can rely on. One of the qualities of the Berger bullets used to be consistency, but alas as demand for their products has climbed dramatically because the Sierra bullets were awful, that aspect of the Berger bullets suffered also and they seem to be rapidly gaining a reputation for inconsistency. The horror stories have multiplied and competitors report having to go through lots of gyrations and culling to get the required bullets. It's sad really, but with the overwhelming demand it was bound to happen.

I just hope that JLK can continue to maintain their high standard of consistency. That aspect, more than any calculated, perceived, inferred or stated BC, is the most important thing in a match bullet, especially for long range.
 
Posts: 2540 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Steel banging
beer snob
Picture of jlemmy
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Thinking for trying out some of the .30 cal 210 JLK's and see how they do. Will be part of my testing with a new brand of brass. Now if I can only find some Federal primers.

Spent some time with a wind coach recently. Their ability to read all the layers of wind was impressive. Learned a lot including that I have a lot more to learn Smile


Happiness is having to climb in your car to change your target.
 
Posts: 2468 | Location: Nowhere Fun | Registered: March 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by NikonUser:
One of the qualities of the Berger bullets used to be consistency, but alas as demand for their products has climbed dramatically because the Sierra bullets were awful, that aspect of the Berger bullets suffered also and they seem to be rapidly gaining a reputation for inconsistency.

I just hope that JLK can continue to maintain their high standard of consistency.

Dagnabbitall. Guess it's back to pulled, surplus FMJ bullets for long distance work. Wink

Big sporting clays marathon tourney over the weekend. 6 clubs, 500 miles of driving between events, wind, cold driving rain on the second day. Not my finest hours -- finished middle of the Masters pack. Oh well, next time.
 
Posts: 4790 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alea iacta est
Picture of exx1976
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I shot a steel match yesterday, and 3 gun today. Steel match yesterday did OK. I was in a 6-way tie for 4th. Awards only given for top 3. One more hit, and it would have been a shoot off between me and one other guy for third. Two flights of 10 targets each. Targets were 4" round steel from 150 - 400 yards. All targets were uphill from the shooting position, with elevation increasing with distance. I hit 14/20. It was timed, as well as shot limited (1 shot per target).

I'll do better next time. I was not set up properly for it. No one to blame but myself, but given what I had to work with, I did the best that I could. That was only my second match like that, so I'm still learning what to do and what not to do. By next season, I can see myself easily beating many of the guys that have been doing this for a long time. Two of the guys I tied for 4th with have been doing these shoots for years. I was disappointed in my performance given my very competitive nature, but given my relative lack of experience, I think I did OK.


3 gun today was a joke. I ended up using 5 guns instead of 3. Glad I brought 5 guns. Stages were laid out wicked stupid, and the fact that I don't have a suppressor holster for my pistol(s) meant I had to use 3 pistols because I wasn't carrying around a hot suppressor in my pocket. The guy that laid out that course needs half a slap. I told him if they continue that nonsense, I won't be going anymore. I won't be too upset about that. Last year it was fun, small group of 20 or so guys that were relaxed and knew one another. This year, they advertised heavily, and guys came out with all sorts of serious competitive nonsense, and I don't like having 3 sigs and cans and a suppressed sbr around so many people I don't know. Makes me uneasy. . There were 41 shooters today. That's just too many for a match that starts at noon.




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15652 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:

Dagnabbitall. Guess it's back to pulled, surplus FMJ bullets for long distance work. Wink



From the stories I hear and the work the guys have to do to get them decent, you're better off with the pulled FMJs.

It's sad really, but the demand is through the roof.
 
Posts: 2540 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by jlemmy:
Thinking for trying out some of the .30 cal 210 JLK's and see how they do. Will be part of my testing with a new brand of brass. Now if I can only find some Federal primers.

Spent some time with a wind coach recently. Their ability to read all the layers of wind was impressive. Learned a lot including that I have a lot more to learn Smile


I know several wind coaches, the ones with the national teams and they are indeed impressive. It's always good having someone to chase.
 
Posts: 2540 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ball Haulin'
Picture of entropy
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Thats why I dont have any desire to competitive shoot on any level. I do it to relax, to find my inner Zen. If I want nonsense...I'll work some overtime on my day gig.



--------------------------------------
"There are things we know. There are things we dont know. Then there are the things we dont know that we dont know."
 
Posts: 10011 | Location: At the end of the gravel road. | Registered: November 02, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Steel banging
beer snob
Picture of jlemmy
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quote:
Originally posted by entropy:
Thats why I dont have any desire to competitive shoot on any level. I do it to relax, to find my inner Zen. If I want nonsense...I'll work some overtime on my day gig.


We are not terribly far apart on this. When I'm behind the rifle all of life's issues just melt away. It's just me and the rifle and that's why I do it. I'm not a competitive person except against myself. The reason I get so obsessive about the rifle and ammo is to know every time the bullet doesn't land where I wanted, it was me and not the equipment.


Happiness is having to climb in your car to change your target.
 
Posts: 2468 | Location: Nowhere Fun | Registered: March 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I am not here to sell you on competition shooting, but I will tell you that you are both wrong.

Wow, that's a start, isn't it?

Competing against yourself is a big crock of "you know what." It's a cop-out. And you will never learn anything because you have nothing with which to compare.

I have been shooting in competitions for over 30 years, (32 years to be exact) on and off. In the last few years I have really gotten into it and I have earned some nice wins and awards and I have set my eyes on the ultimate prize.

But beyond that, I have learned a great deal that I would not have ever learned otherwise. I can shoot at 1000 yards and get results that I never thought possible; I know stuff that you just don't find in books or magazines or movies for that matter.

Going to a competition is an eye opener. Most people think they know how to shoot and they are natural marksmen. That may well be for some, but I soon came to the realization I am not a talented shooter, I have to work at shooting if I'm going to win or place against talented shooters. It's not easy and it's humbling; you go to a match and you think you're a great shot, and you're nothing. That's hard to stomach.

Great competitive shooters are very few and far between and they have a habit of making regular shooters look like amateurs. One day I hope to become one of those great shooters.

What do you think you learn competing against yourself? What pointers are you getting? What goals are you setting and how will you reach those goals?

I could go on, but you get the gist. If you want to become a better shooter, you either pay for the instruction and get told you are a better shooter or you compete with other motivated shooters. Anything else is a delusion.
 
Posts: 2540 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ball Haulin'
Picture of entropy
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Im sorry. I do not find anything in the above to be relaxing to me. I shoot for me.



--------------------------------------
"There are things we know. There are things we dont know. Then there are the things we dont know that we dont know."
 
Posts: 10011 | Location: At the end of the gravel road. | Registered: November 02, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alea iacta est
Picture of exx1976
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quote:
Originally posted by entropy:
Im sorry. I do not find anything in the above to be relaxing to me. I shoot for me.


I started out shooting for me.

Then I got involved in these simple, friendly, 420-yard shoots. Great bunch of guys, shoot your goup, put your rifle away, and have a few beers.

Then from there, it is now steel match.

In the first 2 steel matches I've participated in, I learned a LOT. My shooting skills have improved just by going and talking with people, and seeing what they did and their results vs what I did and my results.

I don't know that "relaxing" is the word I would use to describe the competitions, however, I would also NOT describe them as stressful. They are most assuredly enjoyable, and I have learned a lot, and look forward to learning even more. The camaraderie is a big part of it. If you've never done it, I'd give it a try, just once. Who knows, you might like it. I know it certainly took some cajoling to get me to attend my first, and I didn't even get all 5 shots on a 24x24 sheet of paper that time I was so nervous. But guys made me feel welcome, and no one gave me a hard time about my poor performance. It was a blast.




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15652 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Steel banging
beer snob
Picture of jlemmy
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The competitive sprirt is just something that I have not ever really had. There are goals that I have and I do pay for quality instruction. I have trained with some really talented shooters. Have learned a ton and still have much more to go. I will continue to train as much as I can manage. It's on my schedule and its all for me. Most importantly I'm enjoying myself. If someone likes to compete that great, not my cup of tea. If someone can't understand that they can feel free to keep it to themselves.


Happiness is having to climb in your car to change your target.
 
Posts: 2468 | Location: Nowhere Fun | Registered: March 07, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by entropy:
Im sorry. I do not find anything in the above to be relaxing to me. I shoot for me.


I understand and you're right. I don't compete for relaxation and sometimes it's actually hard work and the pressure can be intense.

A single day match is really nice and fun and it certainly can get exciting. A multi-day match can be daunting. TSRA was 3 days, and that means getting up before the crack of dawn and driving 50 miles to the range and get the equipment sorted out in the dark. Lots of rain, mud, yuck. On Friday, I called wind for 4 shooters, twice. The pressure was there and I was dead tired at the end of the match. But the exhilaration of winning made it all worthwhile, and then some. And I learned more about wind and conditions.

And our team has a goal.

But I do know that competitive shooting is not for everyone, it's actually only for a vanishingly small segment of shooters. At the higher levels, the demands on commitment, time and money can be daunting. But it's fun to look at a wall with plaques, awards and ribbons and know what you have accomplished so far.
 
Posts: 2540 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
The Constable
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I have shot Trap off and on for the past thirty years. Mostly a social thing on a Team from some guys from my old Guard Unit.

My last jump into registered shoots was maybe ten years back. Shooting better consumed me. I went down to Cheyenne Wyoming and took a weekend class with a very noted All American which further improved my game.

I hit it hard. Moved up the ladder and saw steady improvement.

I kept a positive attitude, kept good records of my performance to train in the areas where I was lacking, etc.

Within three months it was like a job. I quit and didn't shoot a single target for four years.

I have a super competitive friend who quite frankly can be tough to be around at times. He is not a shooter but does like to shoot. Even in an informal plinking session at the quarry, if someone hits a can 4 times at 25 yds...he has to hit if FIVE times....NO matter how long it takes. Then we all have to sit through his reliving of that "victory" several times that day.

I for one am not generally a competitive person unless I feel THAT particular endeavor SHOULD require everything I have. I always did my best with pertinent training on the cop job. Tried to stay in shape into my late fifties when I finally retired. Knowing it was essential for Officer survival.


I now shoot for fun. One CAN do that. I shoot a round of trap/skeet occasionally and if I drop a target I do. I ponder what I did wrong, correct the error and MOVE ON. I don't let that failure ruin my day or consume me.

It's simply for fun.

FN in MT
 
Posts: 4946 | Location: Craig, MT | Registered: December 17, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I have competed in formal sports activities for as long as I can recall. Football, basketball, fast pitch softball, golf, track, ski racing. Scores were always there, I rarely rose to the top. When I got serious about shooting, competition just seemed...normal.

Formal competition isn't for everyone. There's a structure that can be a pain. Fellow competitors can be a royal pain. You rarely get to choose when to compete, as in wanting rain checks for work/family/health/weather/equipment issues.

Very, very few of us get to really shine in competition -- there always seems to be someone better, or a higher league where the demands on performance are even more critical. Over the course of my lifetime, I have stood on the point of the pyramid only a few fleeting moments. Then there's next week's competition.

Competition teaches us humility and an ongoing desire to improve. Pretty good lessons, in my opinion.
 
Posts: 4790 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ball Haulin'
Picture of entropy
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To each his own.

I also usually take a couple classes per year. Usually centered around pistol/CQB kind of stuff or medical. Im dead serious with those. Rifle for me is different. Like stated, its a relaxing endeavor. Its a place for me to withdraw to, concentrate on precision (which I do every day at work) but enjoy that precision for what it is. No checkride, no forms in triplicate, no dick measuring. Just me and the bullet.

I like it that way.



--------------------------------------
"There are things we know. There are things we dont know. Then there are the things we dont know that we dont know."
 
Posts: 10011 | Location: At the end of the gravel road. | Registered: November 02, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This (longish) thread is about Long Range Rifle. This is the spirit in which I was discussing the need for competition or training as the way forward in getting better results. We keep talking about equipment and so on, but marksmanship it the big differentiator here; the elephant in the room so to speak.

You cannot and will not get better shooting against yourself at long range, not with any consistency or measurable progress.

And not only that, but long range shooting skills are perishable skills. If you don't keep using them, they wither away.

One thing about competition is that you have to shoot whatever the conditions are. I have shot in freezing weather with wind to match, hot & humid and oppressive, with and without wind, rain showers, overcast, sunshine, crack of dawn and early evening, whenever it was my turn to shoot. You don't pick the conditions, you shoot in them.
 
Posts: 2540 | Location: Texas | Registered: June 20, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Ball Haulin'
Picture of entropy
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Thats great. Enjoy. It sounds like you have the ability to devote much more time than I do. Thanks for making my point too. Big Grin



--------------------------------------
"There are things we know. There are things we dont know. Then there are the things we dont know that we dont know."
 
Posts: 10011 | Location: At the end of the gravel road. | Registered: November 02, 2006Reply With QuoteReport This Post
Alea iacta est
Picture of exx1976
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quote:
Originally posted by entropy:
Thats great. Enjoy. It sounds like you have the ability to devote much more time than I do. Thanks for making my point too. Big Grin


Big Grin




Every time you make a typo, the errorists win.
 
Posts: 15652 | Location: Location, Location  | Registered: April 09, 2012Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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fritz, shooting the next T3? Sign up went out today. Guessing a big turn out, last match before the Cup. Get my wind reading cap adjusted just right, maybe bring home some $$$ to momma. I don't know though, two guys who shoot JLK's will probably be there, maybe I should set my sights for 3rd with my 6.5x47 and the inferior Bergers bullets I feed it? Oh wait, I beat a guy at last Saturdays match who was shooting a 6.5x47/140 JLK's Big Grin
 
Posts: 2290 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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