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Picture of D4Heavy
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So Fritz, if I calculate this right. You held .5ish moa at almost 800 yards. That’s uh incredible. How many trigger pulls do you think you have to be at this level? I know there is more too it than just time behind the gun. But I am curious.
 
Posts: 287 | Registered: December 23, 2015Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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I don't shoot consistently enough to produce such results with every trigger pull, every group, and every day. Which is why many of us roll our eyes when we see any post with the words "all day long", especially if followed by "when I do my part".

I'm just middle of the pack in the matches that I compete in. Look for the targets posted by offgrid and Alpine on this site. My results cannot compare to theirs with 6mm chamberings -- I have neither the equipment nor the skills to pull those off.

Understand that it's not just the number of trigger pulls, but what is done with those trigger pulls. I have been fortunate enough to train with the likes of Rifles Only, Frank Galli, and Bruce Gray. Even more fortunate is the guidance I've received from local and regional shooters in practice and competition. Their advice in adjusting little things -- like body position behind the rifle, cheek welds, head pressure on the buttstock, rear bag use, tripod & barrier use, dry fire practice, target setup, bipod setup, terrain evaluation, wind reading, & on & on -- add up over time.

I track rounds fired on some of my firearms; mainly for those I feel necessary to track barrel life. I currently have 10k rounds on my precision rifles and 19k rounds on my ARs. I have no idea how times I've dry fired rifles, but it will be measured in the thousands. I have not tracked rounds through pistols. I suspect I have between 5k and 10k rounds through rimfire rifles.

I'm pretty certain my round count is a boatload less than those I'm trying to compete against, and their higher round counts are certainly part of the reason they finish higher in matches than I.
 
Posts: 6111 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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The Raton NM sporting rifle match is back. Yeehaw! It's been the better part of a year of drama with the Whittington Center, but lots of contact with cooler heads at the NRA finally worked.

Kudos to offgrid, who shot very well in twitchy breezes at some pretty small targets. Unfortunately it had to be my worst match....ever. Serious head up backside.

Today I practiced on my own to determine the reason(s) for my asshattery. Not the best conditions for shooting, with 10-20 mph winds from my 2-4 o'clock. But better than the forecasted rain/snow/sleet and 20+ mph winds for the next two days.

I started with resetting my ocular focus, as I've been uncertain if my ATACR 7-35x was set up correctly. I think it's almost perfect now -- I don't think any of my NF scopes have crisper reticles. Next, I swapped Atlas bipods between rifles, so that the stiffest pan action is now on the 6.5CM bolt action.

I first shot groups at 100 yards, to see if I had accuracy issues with various lots of Hornady factory 140 ELD ammo. With cold clean bore and nasty side winds, the first group produced .28" vertical in 5 rounds....but 1.5" low. Ruh-roh. On to another lot of ammo -- 5 rounds with vertical of .21"....but 1.5" low.

Dagnabbit -- I entered a match without confirming zero, and paid dearly for it. I changed my zero by 1.5 MOA and put a 3-round group exactly on the zero line, with .18" of vertical variation. Then on to steel at 796 yards -- 5 rounds with 3-3/4" vertical, exactly on target as JBM elevation predicted. In 13-18 mph crosswinds, 4 of the 5 impacts were within 2.5" -- with my last shot being high and right of the tight four.

Wow. What a rookie mistake. From here on out, I will do everything possible to confirm zero the day of the match.
 
Posts: 6111 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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On the technique front, I learned a new way to set up my RRS tripod as a support.

I prior matches I've used the tripod on a high kneeling position, with legs locked out at the 30-degree (-ish) stop. For rear support my options were (1) shoulder only, (2) rear sticks, (3) pulling down on sling attached to the front of the stock, or (4) rear bag supported by my thigh.

The new method to me is a high sitting position (sitting on pack) with legs locked out at the 60-degree (-ish) stop. Left knee is pressed up against on tripod leg and left hand supports rifle buttstock -- by grabbing bicep, pec muscle, or clavicle. Surprisingly stable IMO, and a little faster to setup than tripod plus rear sticks.
 
Posts: 6111 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:

Dagnabbit -- I entered a match without confirming zero, and paid dearly for it.

Wow. What a rookie mistake. From here on out, I will do everything possible to confirm zero the day of the match.


My primary long range instructor told me a long time ago..... Never go long without two pieces of critical info; confirmed zero and a chrono speed.

Andrew



Duty is the sublimest word in the English Language - Gen Robert E Lee.
 
Posts: 611 | Registered: May 01, 2010Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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fritz, always good shooting with you. Very difficult winds and now the targets are smaller/further, it was grind. Fun Stuff!

Did you check zero before changing your ocular?

For what this is worth. Thursday before the match shot a 20 shot dot drill, get up and down with my rifle between each shot. If everything is within a .1 mils, good enough. I strongly believe just shooting a group to check zero is a waste, could be a tail chaser. Chrono'd 5rds. Raton practice range don't check zero, check dope tracking. Rectangle plates at 550, 600, 650, 690 and 880yds. I'll dial and hold .1 mil above the bottom of the plates, see where I impact.... make a dope correction if needed. If impact under the plate, shoot again same dope .1 mil below the top of plate, obviously going to land low....make a correction. Do this for all targets. Repeat a few times going after the bolts that hang the targets. If I make changes to my dope/velocity, I don't question it, trust the impact. Many of the targets at Raton are diamonds, if elevation is off makes for a very narrow wind window. EX: 10" diamond at 730, off more then .1 mil up/down in elevation could be shooting at 3" wide target now. If elevation is spot on, makes things a bit easier for sure. The above ties into how I check loads. I do my final load checks at either 850 or 1050, looking at vertical only. Have a handle on what me, my rifle and load are capable of shooting as I do the dope track. 6BR/6BR variance hold vertical exceptionally well Big Grin
 
Posts: 2642 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by offgrid:
Did you check zero before changing your ocular?

I did not check zero before changing the ocular focus. I adjusted the focus at home, the day after the match. This ATACR 7-35x was shipped to me with what was probably a good focus, but the locking ring was not tightened down well. When I mounted the scope late this winter, I grabbed a handful of ocular to zoom in-&-out and the focus changed. My first attempt to re-focus didn't go well, and I struggled with parallax. Based on a tip from swage here, I changed my focusing methods a bit and got better results about a few weeks ago. But given my sheepdip shooting at Raton, I decided to start all over again with the focus in my house. I think I got it right this time. The reticle was really crisp yesterday, and once parallax was adjusted to given target distances, I could really see that the reticle and targets were on the same focal plane. I intentionally moved my head position all around, but the reticle stayed on target.

Shooting for groups yesterday was the first test of a possible few -- as I noted in my text to you. When my first cold bore impacted landed 1.5" low, I knew things were not good. And yes, this was after some 25-30 dry fires, including getting up and down, and rebuilding positions. When the next four shots confirmed the same low POI with my "Raton practice ammo" lot, I moved on to the "Raton match ammo" lot. And again, the POI was 1.5" low. The crosswinds were bad enough that I was really shooting for elevation, not true groups. Getting up from position, I dialed up 1.5 MOA on the scope, switched back and forth between ammo lots on different parts of the target. These were single-fed shots on two different aim points -- "practice ammo" on the left side of the gridded paper target, "match ammo" on the right side of the target.

Since I was single feeding, and bouncing between POA locations, I was breaking position each time. Dots could have worked, too, but the bold red horizontal line on my target was my metric for elevation. Given that the wind was drifting bullets laterally from .5" to over 1" (at only 100 yards!), I felt this was the place to start. When POI equaled POA at just under 800 yards, using historically good JBM dialed elevation, I figured I was good to go.

My idiocy comes from not doing your trick of holding .1 mil below top of targets to check POI at distance. I know to do this, but just blanked out mentally during the sight in practice. I aimed center of distant targets and didn't keep close track of POI. Mongo aim at target...Mongo hit target...Mongo must be ready to compete.
 
Posts: 6111 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Basically, I got lazy at Raton and paid for it. I've had a ATACR 5-25x on my 6.5CM for a few years now, and it just did not change zero -- from match to match, month to month, location to location.

It's quite possible that I didn't set zero well at my range when I installed the ATACR 7-35x this winter. I don't have that many rounds on the rifle with the 7-35x. This was definitely my first match with the new scope. My rifles can experience a lot of jostling while driving across the pasture at the range. It's also possible the scope/mount/rifle got bumped pretty good while driving across cow paths, drainage ruts, yucca dig holes, or whatever. It's possible I did this with the gun in the back of the SUV, uncased, going from shooting position to target position, when it was snowing and the wind was howling.

Anyway, I hope I've learned a lesson or two.
 
Posts: 6111 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
On the technique front, I learned a new way to set up my RRS tripod as a support.


Once again you posted something that piqued my interest.
Although I sometimes carry a pack to where I’m shooting, most of the time the ones I have and how I fill them wouldn’t be very suitable to sit on unless I stuffed them full of clothes, etc. I have a WieBad “pump pillow” that I tried and it works okay, but I’m concerned that the fill might become crushed and packed down. If you didn’t use your pack to sit on, do you have any ideas about what might be a suitable substitute to carry?




“ Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed nonage [immaturity]. Nonage is the inability to use one’s own understanding without another’s guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one’s own mind without another’s guidance.”
— Immanuel Kant
 
Posts: 40124 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
On the technique front, I learned a new way to set up my RRS tripod as a support.


Once again you posted something that piqued my interest.
Although I sometimes carry a pack to where I’m shooting, most of the time the ones I have and how I fill them wouldn’t be very suitable to sit on unless I stuffed them full of clothes, etc. I have a WieBad “pump pillow” that I tried and it works okay, but I’m concerned that the fill might become crushed and packed down. If you didn’t use your pack to sit on, do you have any ideas about what might be a suitable substitute to carry?


Roll up a Yoga/exercise mat or cut one into 12" or so square pieces/stack/tape together. Also can cut the width before rolling up....
 
Posts: 2642 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by offgrid:
Roll up a Yoga/exercise mat or cut one into 12" or so square pieces/stack/tape together.


Ah, ha!
I already have a yoga mat (for use on snow) that folds into a rectangular pile. It’s a little low just by itself, but I also have an old camping pad (none of that sleeping on the ground stuff for me any more) that I can cut and stack up to add to the height.

I just tried a sitting position with tripod and a pillow under the stock and between my arms along with a bit of sling support, and I believe it will be pretty stable. It’s essentially the same as a sitting with tripod position I tried before, but because my butt is higher (and the pad is softer), it’s much more comfortable and easy to maintain than sitting on the ground.

Thanks to you both.




“ Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed nonage [immaturity]. Nonage is the inability to use one’s own understanding without another’s guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one’s own mind without another’s guidance.”
— Immanuel Kant
 
Posts: 40124 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by offgrid:
Roll up a Yoga/exercise mat or cut one into 12" or so square pieces/stack/tape together.


Ah, ha!
I already have a yoga mat (for use on snow) that folds into a rectangular pile. It’s a little low just by itself, but I also have an old camping pad (none of that sleeping on the ground stuff for me any more) that I can cut and stack up to add to the height.

I just tried a sitting position with tripod and a pillow under the stock and between my arms along with a bit of sling support, and I believe it will be pretty stable. It’s essentially the same as a sitting with tripod position I tried before, but because my butt is higher (and the pad is softer), it’s much more comfortable and easy to maintain than sitting on the ground.

Thanks to you both.


I've tried shooting off of tripod many different ways, many of those rounds with my 40X 22LR. When using a sling with a tripod easy to pull shots left (right handed shooter) because of the torque from the sling. YMMV. Keep your shoulders slightly in front of your hips, little forward lean.
 
Posts: 2642 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by offgrid:
When using a sling with a tripod easy to pull shots left (right handed shooter) because of the torque from the sling.


I can see that. I haven’t tried to add the sling for additional support when using a tripod in the past, but now that I’m trying to develop some useful sling support techniques, that’s become an obvious factor to consider.




“ Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed nonage [immaturity]. Nonage is the inability to use one’s own understanding without another’s guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one’s own mind without another’s guidance.”
— Immanuel Kant
 
Posts: 40124 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by sigfreund:
quote:
Originally posted by offgrid:
When using a sling with a tripod easy to pull shots left (right handed shooter) because of the torque from the sling.

I can see that. I haven’t tried to add the sling for additional support when using a tripod in the past, but now that I’m trying to develop some useful sling support techniques, that’s become an obvious factor to consider.

The torque can definitely pull shots left, as I experienced when I began using this technique. Ways to mitigate this torque include:
- Using a sling attachment that is directly underneath the barrel rather than to the side of the barrel. My bolt action rifles have QD sling attachments in both locations.

- Using a more forward tripod leg placement for the leg that will be used for downward pressure from the sling. This takes some experimentation to balance sideways pressure against an awkward shooting position. If the leg is at 9 o'clock (assuming bore pointing to 12 o'clock), then one has a comfy shooting position, but leftward torque. If the leg is at 12 o'clock, the shooting position is likely awkward, but the rifle is steady.

******
As for using only a pump pillow as a seat for the low & wide tripod setup:
- I tried it with my 308 before this last match. I thought it was unstable, especially with a 308's recoil. It may work with a lower-recoiling caliber.
- I definitely prefer a pack for the seat. It's larger, more stable, and less compressible.
 
Posts: 6111 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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quote:
Originally posted by fritz:
- I definitely prefer a pack for the seat. It's larger, more stable, and less compressible.


As always, fritz, thanks for all that. I have given up on the idea of using the pump pillow for a seat.

Per offgrid’s suggestion, I am experimenting with a cushion made of an old camping pad on top of a folded yoga mat, but that’s not ideal. I may try improving that setup some, but I can understand your preference for a pack. I’m not sure that will ever be a good option for me, however. I have more than one pack, though, and haven’t looked at alternatives besides the one I normally rely on. I’m also doing stretches to help make it more comfortable (and feasible) to just sit directly on the ground with perhaps a thin pad as snivel gear.




“ Enlightenment is man’s emergence from his self-imposed nonage [immaturity]. Nonage is the inability to use one’s own understanding without another’s guidance. This nonage is self-imposed if its cause lies not in lack of understanding but in indecision and lack of courage to use one’s own mind without another’s guidance.”
— Immanuel Kant
 
Posts: 40124 | Location: 10,150 Feet Above Sea Level in Colorado | Registered: April 04, 2002Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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This only took 11 months Mad Finally received the stamp for a TBAC 338 Ultra. Picked up a TBAC 50% off cert last year at a match. Waffled between the 9 Ultra 30 and 338 Ultra. I also shoot a 7saum. Friend let me A-B between his 9 Ultra and 338 on the 7saum, fair amount of difference between the two. Extra length doesn't bother me, not doing any airborne drops into the food court anytime soon. Shot it on my 6BRA the last couple days, silly quiet. There may have been some giggling! Load changed slightly. Previously shot 30.4/4895/105's with a heavy all stainless can. Ran a few lower charges, snapped right back in. Guessed right thinking with the lighter TBAC need to lower the charge. Will shoot the 30 and 30.2 charge at 850 and 1000yds see if there's a difference. Fun stuff!



 
Posts: 2642 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by offgrid:
...not doing any airborne drops into the food court anytime soon.

Maybe, but it you did you'd be vewy, vewy quiet. That will be a great can.

Do I see powder residue on the paper for those 30 grain loads? How do the groups look when you back out to 100 yards? DOH!!! I guess that's why the "BR" name comes from "bench rest".

I think you need range time on a cheap chrome-lined barrel with FMJ ammo to see how the rest of the world deals with accuracy.
Or not.
 
Posts: 6111 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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fritz, nice shooting this weekend in Raton. Winning the AR match and the bolt rifle match, proud stuff! Good luck at the Steel Safari. Find target, range target, shoot target...nothing to it!
 
Posts: 2642 | Location: 9860 ft above sea level Colorado | Registered: December 31, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Thanks -- yeah, I got lucky in a lot of ways at Raton. Having my head out of my backside for a couple of days helped, too.

I like the Arca Swiss plate that Fritz A. (the real Fritz) installed on my McMillan-stocked 6.5CM. I saw two immediate advantages:
- Clamping the rifle into the RRS tripod's Arca attachment was faster and more secure than the Vyce-type setup. BTW, I returned to a high-kneeling narrow-legged tripod position on the sticks stage, with a rear stick for support. I feel it's more stable than the wide-legged tripod method I tried for the last two matches.
- The bipod now slides backwards, which made it easier to obtain elevation for the 800-ish yard targets high on the far side of the canyon.

As for the Steel Safari, it's a whole different animal than Raton. I just hope I can find targets quickly and stay calm with the time constraints.
 
Posts: 6111 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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Originally posted by offgrid:
Finally received the stamp for a TBAC 338 Ultra.
Shot it on my 6BRA the last couple days, silly quiet.

I agree. After warming up at Raton, I stood back by my car, watching and listening to a number of competitors. The noise difference between braked rifles, bare muzzle rifles, and suppressed rifles was amazing. Even among the suppressors there was a noticeable difference.

Your 6mm with a 338LM can was really, really quiet. More of a PFFFFFTTT than anything else. I suspect most of what I heard was the supersonic crack of the bullet, not the sound of the powder charge. There's something to be said for a really large volume can on a smaller-bore smaller-charge cartridge.
 
Posts: 6111 | Location: Colorado | Registered: January 26, 2008Reply With QuoteReport This Post
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