All it does is announce your presence. I think it would be a bad idea.

quote:

Originally posted by 50 cal:
All it does is announce your presence. I think it would be a bad idea.

Are you looking to ambush an intruder? I certainly can understand if someone has entered your home knowing full well that you are there, but that isn't always the case. I just have an aversion to just popping out from around a corner and blasting away without giving the intruder a chance to retreat. If you can live with that by all means blast away, but I intend to ensure that my action allow me to sleep at night.

quote:

Originally posted by parallel:
Are you looking to ambush an intruder?

This is an example of imagining a limited set of circumstances. I can think of a number of situations in which the resident would be absolutely correct in firing without warning. I don't care to spell out examples in a forum like this, but they would be morally and legally justified (at least in Colorado).

Further, there is another way of announcing one's presence to an intruder that is more effective and is better at satisfying any possible legal requirements than the ambiguous sound of a shotgun slide—something that many people have never heard in their lives. It also gives the resident the option of using it or not; making a shotgun ready to shoot doesn't. I am, of course, referring to a verbal challenge.

I don't know what 50 cal had in mind with his statement, but I didn't see anything in it to support your assumption that he wouldn't announce his presence if warranted. Having a shotgun available for use with a round chambered is no more indication that someone intends to ambush an intruder than having a pistol with a round chambered.

I wouldn't count on the BG leaving at the sound. I also wouldn't keep a shotgun chambered as I would a handgun. At the first sign of trouble your likely going to be picking up your shotgun then and that's when I am cambering a round.

I keep my shot gun with an empty chamber, hammer down, safety off. I have to rack it and I'm ready.

I don't count on the sound of racking the shotgun to stop someone. If any sound will stop someone it's the dog barking and growling. If they are coming up the satiars while hearing that, ain't anyother sound going to stop them.

Why do so many insist on using the phrase "count on"? Anyone who has ever been in a fight knows that you can't "count on" any punch, technique or strategy to work. Does that mean that you don't try them? Of course not! You use those things when appropriate and if they are ineffective you move on to something else. This is no different.

Yes Sigfreund there are instances in which firing without warning is appropriate. In fact I even referred to one directly after my initial question. My point is basically the same as yours in that there are too many scenarios to rule out a certain kind of response. Given that, I choose not to keep a round in the chamber for many reasons, not the least of which is the sound that it makes. Again, I intend to use EVERY tool available that I deem appropriate including verbal challenge. This is NOT an either/or thing. I will do everything that I can. As someone pointed out already, weather or not the sound works is anecdotal at best, but I have decided that it is worth a shot (no pun intended) if it could possibly result in a threat being neutralized without the legal, moral and phycological mess that is a HD/SD shooting.

I know that this topic has been hotly debated for at least 25 years, which is how long I have been shotgunning, and probably well before then. I have been carrying a shotgun as a big-city police officer for 24 years now. Yes, the sound of the slide being stroked tends to get people's attention, but so does the sight of a shotgun. This does not mean a bad guy will be impressed with your shotgun.

There are times when an audible warning to one's foe is a good thing, and other times when stealth or ambush is the better course of action. Regardless, I keep my shotgun in "cruiser ready" not just because of policy, but because a pump gun's firing pin is not locked, and the crossbolt safety of an 870 only blocks the trigger; it does nothing to lock or interrupt the firing mechanism. I am more likely to be involved in a vehicular collision than a shooting, and I don't want an inertia-fire to happen.

FWIW, my "cruiser ready" is with the hammer cocked, chamber empty, so I have to hit the slide release to be able to run the slide, though I will unlock the slide just about any time I deploy the gun, not necessarily waiting until I run the slide. I will usually run the slide when I deploy the gun, however, then unlock the slide, using the slightly opened action as my safety. This allows me to approach a situation with a round already chambered, so I can be quiet if the situation warrants. Then, I can close the slide very quietly, or slam it shut if it seems the thing to do at the moment.

BTW, I use the slightly-opened action instead of the safety button largely because I am left-eye dominant, and shoot long guns mostly as a lefty. If I am set-up in a way that right-hand use is advantageous, such as on the right edge of cover or a barricade, or on the left side of a team moving through an area, I will switch shoulders, close the action, and use the safety button in normal right-hand mode. I swapped the stock safety button for the truly excellent big-head mushroom-shaped safety from Vang-comp. BTW, yes, I train equally from both shoulders, and recommend the same to others.

Just my $0.02. I am not an expert, or close to being one.

I won't leave a pistol or a rifle in stand by with an empty chamber so that I can scare away oppenents with a racking sound. So, I don't see why I would do that with a shotgun either.

Besides, the clumbersome shotgun feeding mechanism makes me more reluctant to make up a procedure that requires me to do a feeding manipulation right before I might have to fire.
Pump action shotguns are sturdy, and breaks less, but they are NOT reliable. It's unreliable to a degree that it's the only small arms type designed for short range that self loading mechanism is not prevalent. It's the only type of long gun that I'm aware of that would jam, just because I happen to be hold it canted to the right when I rack it, which is required after every shot.

My last word is that I would not adopt a combat tactic or doctrine that is based on the opponent being pathetic. I had to account for the possiblity that the opponent may be a type who would make dry wall right in front of me into a swiss cheese as soon as I make a racking noise with a shotgun behind that wall.

Zombies do not care what noise you make at them.

Keep it ready to go at all times.

Our general orders mandate cruiser ready (empty chamber, safety on, action unlocked). So, on those rare occasions I carry a shotgun, if I have to deploy it, I'll let you know.

Rifles, on the other hand, we can carry with a loaded chamber. I have an issued M16 almost all the time when I'm out and about for work.

quote:

Originally posted by parallel:
Why do so many insist on using the phrase "count on"? Anyone who has ever been in a fight knows that you can't "count on" any punch, technique or strategy to work. Does that mean that you don't try them? Of course not! You use those things when appropriate and if they are ineffective you move on to something else. This is no different.

Absolutely!

When I was in the coast guard serving as a boarding team officer we were trained to keep the chamber empty. One reason for this was safty. Being on a rocking boat with a round in the chamber was not a smart idea.
On the tactics side, chambering a round was thought of as a "warning shot". The sound is fairly loud and will get your attention, even on an operating fishing vessel. This action was always done while given commands to the suspect.
We were never in a situation where giving our position away was a concern.
In a home defence situation, I would do it the same way. I would want a criminal to know I was well armed and ready to defend myself and family.
Would you try to advance on a loaded shotgun?

I would never put my life in the hands of a sound....

I keep it loaded.

quote:

Originally posted by amc:
When I was in the coast guard serving as a boarding team officer we were trained to keep the chamber empty. One reason for this was safty. Being on a rocking boat with a round in the chamber was not a smart idea.
On the tactics side, chambering a round was thought of as a "warning shot". The sound is fairly loud and will get your attention, even on an operating fishing vessel. This action was always done while given commands to the suspect.

Ah yes, I got my board and search training from the Coast Guard. While we Navy guys poked fun at the coasties, they sure did earn our respect with their knowledge and professionalism of boarding a suspect vessel. You guys know your stuff.

[/QUOTE]
Ah yes, I got my board and search training from the Coast Guard. While we Navy guys poked fun at the coasties, they sure did earn our respect with their knowledge and professionalism of boarding a suspect vessel. You guys know your stuff.[/QUOTE]

Thanks parallel. You squids are okay too.

quote:

Originally posted by parallel:
Why is it that so many are so willing to limit the tools used for home /self defense. When I bought a shotgun for my wife to use in the early 90's, I taught her to do basically the same thing as Sendec has stated. I explained to her the reasoning behind it, which was to limit AD AND to have that little extra variable that she may not have to fire. I just don't get the thought that if you point a weapon at an intruder/aggressor then you have already committed to shooting. The legal, moral and phycological ramifications of taking a life is why I choose to defend my family and myself utilizing EVERY tool available . If I ever need to shoot in a HD/SD scenario I will have a clear conscience that I made every reasonable effort to avoid having to do so. There is NO doubt in my mind that Mrs Parallel (or I) will not hesitate if we ever have to shoot. The reason is that we approach HD/SD in a manner that doesn't have us second guessing ourselves. So.. yeah... we would hope that chambering a round in the shotgun will be a deterrent. That doesn't mean that if the BG doesn't run a way we will be so shocked that we never defend ourselves. To suggest such a thing is just silly.

One thing to add to parallels post is the possible legal issues that will follow if you take that last resort shot.
You'll need to convence a jury that it was a last resort to defend yourself or family. The fact that you gave verbal warning followed by clear evidence that you are armed by racking theslide to load the chamber before firing will only help you in court. A lawyer will most likely make you look like a cold blooded killer if you fire without clear warning.
The best possible outcome in a home defence situation is to be able to end it without shots fired.

I don't keep my bedside handgun chamber empty. The 870 isn't chamber empty either.
Flip the safety off and get ready to go to work.

If the BG is found there at night, he will be found there in the morning a little worse for the wear.

quote:

Originally posted by parallel:
I just have an aversion to just popping out from around a corner and blasting away without giving the intruder a chance to retreat. If you can live with that by all means blast away, but I intend to ensure that my action allow me to sleep at night.

If the intruder is armed you intend to give them a free shot then?

Once they set foot within your door they have forfeited their right to life.

quote:

Originally posted by amc:
You'll need to convence a jury that it was a last resort to defend yourself or family.

Not everywhere in these not-so United States. Anyone who believes that without checking applicable statutes where s/he lives is doing her/himself and those s/he's responsible for protecting a grave disservice.

IMHO, you should have the weapon hammer-down and empty chamber simply to avoid AD's/ND's. It allows you to have a ready to go shotgun with a very simple and easy to manipulate safety feature.

Under stress, some people find it difficult to manipulate safety catches or cocking levers. On a shotgun, the entire front grip is the cocking lever and its operation is instinctive. A shotgun is the only weapon I would consider carrying into combat on Condition Two, and since it's so easy to make it ready to fire, you have an intrinsically safer weapon.